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Hi all,
Minifree has launched a new freedom-friendly computer. Two, in fact.
Desktop/workstation version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16/
Server version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16-server/
This is a high-end AMD server platform, being sold in server and extended ATX (desktop/workstation) form factor. It comes with Debian and Libreboot preinstalled.
This is the first modern commercial system available today that can be configured to run entirely free software; first Debian, the OS, and then libreboot, a free/libre BIOS implementation. With Debian and Libreboot, this is a fully free system containing zero binary blobs of any kind.
This has positive implications for security in terms of audability, and therefore privacy in general (no backdoors!). It's also free software friendly, so there are zero binary blobs and zero proprietary software running on it in the OS or BIOS. You have all of the four freedoms over each part of the boot process, which means that you the user are in full control.
For the first time ever, it is possible for companies to use libreboot-enabled hardware.
The problem so far with Libreboot and Minifree is that it only focussed on low-end hardware. The launch of the D16 Server and D16 Desktop changes that. With this hardware you can:
* do actual, serious work e.g. programming or 3D modeling. Software development nowadays requires powerful computers, because software becomes more complex. The sheer amount of time to build from source can be a problem on its own. The D16 can support up to 16 fast AMD Opteron cores per CPU, and 2 CPUs are possible so 32 cores in total. This is ideal for software development. * provide professional hosting services for paying clients, and run a small ISP * provide servers inside organisations * play modern games (libre ones) * etc (anything that requires a fast computer, basically)
Spread the word!
- -- Leah Rowe
Libreboot developer
Use free software. Free as in freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
Use a free operating system, GNU+Linux. https://libreboot.org/docs/distros/ Or BSD: https://libreboot.org/docs/bsd/
Use a free BIOS. https://libreboot.org/
Support computer user freedom. https://peers.community/
Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom | Registered in England, No. 9361826 | VAT No. GB202190462 Registered Office: 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island, Essex SS8 9QA, UK | Web: https://minifree.org/
On 12/30/2016 09:19 AM, Leah Rowe wrote:
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Hi all,
Minifree has launched a new freedom-friendly computer. Two, in fact.
Desktop/workstation version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16/
Server version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16-server/
This is a high-end AMD server platform, being sold in server and extended ATX (desktop/workstation) form factor. It comes with Debian and Libreboot preinstalled.
This is the first modern commercial system available today that can be configured to run entirely free software; first Debian, the OS, and then libreboot, a free/libre BIOS implementation. With Debian and Libreboot, this is a fully free system containing zero binary blobs of any kind.
This has positive implications for security in terms of audability, and therefore privacy in general (no backdoors!). It's also free software friendly, so there are zero binary blobs and zero proprietary software running on it in the OS or BIOS. You have all of the four freedoms over each part of the boot process, which means that you the user are in full control.
For the first time ever, it is possible for companies to use libreboot-enabled hardware.
The problem so far with Libreboot and Minifree is that it only focussed on low-end hardware. The launch of the D16 Server and D16 Desktop changes that. With this hardware you can:
- do actual, serious work e.g. programming or 3D modeling. Software
development nowadays requires powerful computers, because software becomes more complex. The sheer amount of time to build from source can be a problem on its own. The D16 can support up to 16 fast AMD Opteron cores per CPU, and 2 CPUs are possible so 32 cores in total. This is ideal for software development.
- provide professional hosting services for paying clients, and run a
small ISP
- provide servers inside organisations
- play modern games (libre ones)
- etc (anything that requires a fast computer, basically)
Spread the word!
Leah Rowe
Libreboot developer
Use free software. Free as in freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
Use a free operating system, GNU+Linux. https://libreboot.org/docs/distros/ Or BSD: https://libreboot.org/docs/bsd/
Use a free BIOS. https://libreboot.org/
Support computer user freedom. https://peers.community/
Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom | Registered in England, No. 9361826 | VAT No. GB202190462 Registered Office: 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island, Essex SS8 9QA, UK | Web: https://minifree.org/
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It supports IOMMU for graphics, which you should note as this is a popular feature these days. (proper support including interrupt remapping and PCI-e ACS, unlike the intel platforms from the same era)
I play the latest games at high settings in a windows VM with 8 cores assigned and 25-30% usage of those 8 cores. The only problem is the lack of pci-e slots, most sites claim 5 when there are only 4 usable at any time (which are all 2.0, x8, x16 x16 and x4) although I suppose that could be solved with a pci-e external expansion system.
One more thing, as you probably know the PWM fans stay full tilt without linux "fancontrol" so make sure to include a note instructing people to turn it on. (for a moment I had assumed that libreboot removed the fan controller ic firmware or something)
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I would like to point out, that the price recently halved, compared to the launch price. It is now at reasonable levels.
Desktop/workstation version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16/
Server version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16-server/
On 30/12/16 14:19, Leah Rowe wrote:
Hi all,
Minifree has launched a new freedom-friendly computer. Two, in fact.
Desktop/workstation version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16/
Server version: https://minifree.org/product/libreboot-d16-server/
This is a high-end AMD server platform, being sold in server and extended ATX (desktop/workstation) form factor. It comes with Debian and Libreboot preinstalled.
This is the first modern commercial system available today that can be configured to run entirely free software; first Debian, the OS, and then libreboot, a free/libre BIOS implementation. With Debian and Libreboot, this is a fully free system containing zero binary blobs of any kind.
This has positive implications for security in terms of audability, and therefore privacy in general (no backdoors!). It's also free software friendly, so there are zero binary blobs and zero proprietary software running on it in the OS or BIOS. You have all of the four freedoms over each part of the boot process, which means that you the user are in full control.
For the first time ever, it is possible for companies to use libreboot-enabled hardware.
The problem so far with Libreboot and Minifree is that it only focussed on low-end hardware. The launch of the D16 Server and D16 Desktop changes that. With this hardware you can:
- do actual, serious work e.g. programming or 3D modeling.
Software development nowadays requires powerful computers, because software becomes more complex. The sheer amount of time to build from source can be a problem on its own. The D16 can support up to 16 fast AMD Opteron cores per CPU, and 2 CPUs are possible so 32 cores in total. This is ideal for software development. * provide professional hosting services for paying clients, and run a small ISP * provide servers inside organisations * play modern games (libre ones) * etc (anything that requires a fast computer, basically)
Spread the word!
- -- Leah Rowe
Libreboot developer
Use free software. Free as in freedom. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_software
Use a free operating system, GNU+Linux. https://libreboot.org/docs/distros/ Or BSD: https://libreboot.org/docs/bsd/
Use a free BIOS. https://libreboot.org/
Support computer user freedom. https://peers.community/
Minifree Ltd, trading as Ministry of Freedom | Registered in England, No. 9361826 | VAT No. GB202190462 Registered Office: 19 Hilton Road, Canvey Island, Essex SS8 9QA, UK | Web: https://minifree.org/
I would care to disagree with. "The Libreboot D16 Server is the only high-end, business-grade, secure owner-controlled server that safeguards your privacy, security and freedom."
*x86-64* should be added in, as you can buy a reasonably *for what you get* priced POWER8 server that has open source firmware such as the TYAN Palmetto or one from IBM's POWER line both of which have way more juice.
Although this is the best and last free x86-64 motherboard so IMO everyone should get one while they still can.
Heres to hoping POWER-ME is never invented.
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On 01/07/2017 07:26 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
I would care to disagree with. "The Libreboot D16 Server is the only high-end, business-grade, secure owner-controlled server that safeguards your privacy, security and freedom."
*x86-64* should be added in, as you can buy a reasonably *for what you get* priced POWER8 server that has open source firmware such as the TYAN Palmetto or one from IBM's POWER line both of which have way more juice.
This is true only within limits. Purchasing a Palmetto, which is a severely underpowered OpenPOWER system with only one Centaur, costs over $3k USD. Tyan's systems do not come with open source firmware, and the next IBM system up to offer (but not ship with) open firmware is the S822LC, which starts at nearly $7k USD.
Raptor Engineering would be willing to free up the Tyan systems under contract, but as we do not use the Tyan systems internally we would not do this work as part of our normal operations.
Although this is the best and last free x86-64 motherboard so IMO everyone should get one while they still can.
Heres to hoping POWER-ME is never invented.
+1. The best way to ensure it isn't invented is to contact IBM and state the reasons you are considering an OpenPOWER system (open firmware, lack of vendor signatures, etc.).
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
On 01/07/2017 09:37 PM, Timothy Pearson wrote:
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On 01/07/2017 07:26 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
I would care to disagree with. "The Libreboot D16 Server is the only high-end, business-grade, secure owner-controlled server that safeguards your privacy, security and freedom."
*x86-64* should be added in, as you can buy a reasonably *for what you get* priced POWER8 server that has open source firmware such as the TYAN Palmetto or one from IBM's POWER line both of which have way more juice.
This is true only within limits. Purchasing a Palmetto, which is a severely underpowered OpenPOWER system with only one Centaur, costs over $3k USD. Tyan's systems do not come with open source firmware, and the next IBM system up to offer (but not ship with) open firmware is the S822LC, which starts at nearly $7k USD.
Raptor Engineering would be willing to free up the Tyan systems under contract, but as we do not use the Tyan systems internally we would not do this work as part of our normal operations.
Although this is the best and last free x86-64 motherboard so IMO everyone should get one while they still can.
Heres to hoping POWER-ME is never invented.
+1. The best way to ensure it isn't invented is to contact IBM and state the reasons you are considering an OpenPOWER system (open firmware, lack of vendor signatures, etc.).
Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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Ah thanks for the info, I had thought all IBM POWER8 systems had open firmware :( So to confirm, the more reasonably priced S812LC for 4.8K doesn't have it? What a shame.
Yeah I proselytized by asking them a few questions on the web-form but they never replied. I asked them: If you can use them as workstations by slotting in a graphics card and attaching it to a VM like with x86 IOMMU GFX. Which systems have open blob free firmware and how easy it is to do a user-compile/flash. What is the difference between the shipping firmware and the "open" firmware.
Man things are really going to hell these days, nothing we buy is really ours - even the box of trash bags in my kitchen has an EULA printed on the bottom.
Le samedi 07 janvier 2017 à 22:14 -0500, Taiidan@gmx.com a écrit :
Ah thanks for the info, I had thought all IBM POWER8 systems had open firmware :( So to confirm, the more reasonably priced S812LC for 4.8K doesn't have it? What a shame.
The S812LC (codename Habanero) has OpenPOWER support but doesn't have OpenBMC support yet, so you can boot the CPU(s) with free software but the BMC can only use the non-free system it has preinstalled sofar.
It's not impossible that Habanero support gets added to OpenBMC in the future, but it's hard to say when and if it's going to happen.
Cheers,
On 01/08/2017 08:12 AM, Paul Kocialkowski wrote:
Le samedi 07 janvier 2017 à 22:14 -0500, Taiidan@gmx.com a écrit :
Ah thanks for the info, I had thought all IBM POWER8 systems had open firmware :( So to confirm, the more reasonably priced S812LC for 4.8K doesn't have it? What a shame.
The S812LC (codename Habanero) has OpenPOWER support but doesn't have OpenBMC support yet, so you can boot the CPU(s) with free software but the BMC can only use the non-free system it has preinstalled sofar.
It's not impossible that Habanero support gets added to OpenBMC in the future, but it's hard to say when and if it's going to happen.
Cheers,
I see. I had assumed the difference between both was simply corporate style marketing or a different CPU/ram and that IBM had simply opened its own firmware rather than making new firmware (why not....weird)
Is it possible to use it without the BMC by installing a graphics card or using a serial port? Can it initialize graphics attached to a VM or bare metal?
Paul, how do you feel about IBM's customer service? for that much money they had better deliver a native english speaking staff who knows what they're doing.
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On 01/08/2017 09:27 AM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
On 01/08/2017 08:12 AM, Paul Kocialkowski wrote:
Le samedi 07 janvier 2017 à 22:14 -0500, Taiidan@gmx.com a écrit :
Ah thanks for the info, I had thought all IBM POWER8 systems had open firmware :( So to confirm, the more reasonably priced S812LC for 4.8K doesn't have it? What a shame.
The S812LC (codename Habanero) has OpenPOWER support but doesn't have OpenBMC support yet, so you can boot the CPU(s) with free software but the BMC can only use the non-free system it has preinstalled sofar.
It's not impossible that Habanero support gets added to OpenBMC in the future, but it's hard to say when and if it's going to happen.
Cheers,
I see. I had assumed the difference between both was simply corporate style marketing or a different CPU/ram and that IBM had simply opened its own firmware rather than making new firmware (why not....weird)
IBM licensed its original BMC firmware from a third party and was unable to release it as a result. IBM concurrently brought up a libre BMC firmware, but this libre firmware is still not functional when combined with the libre system firmware on any other machine than Palmetto. We have been working off and on to restore functionality, and have put in a sizeable amount of effort on the S822LC BMC to the point where you can use a libre BMC firmware with the proprietary IBM firmware or vice versa, but not both together; fixing this is a medium-low priority task here but we have not had a chance to work on it for the past several months.
Is it possible to use it without the BMC by installing a graphics card or using a serial port? Can it initialize graphics attached to a VM or bare metal?
No! The BMC is critical to system initialization on OpenPOWER systems; there is no way whatsoever to bypass it, and it sits at a sufficiently high privilege level to make use with the proprietary firmware just about as insecure as using a stock UEFI network-enabled firmware on x86.
Paul, how do you feel about IBM's customer service? for that much money they had better deliver a native english speaking staff who knows what they're doing.
We've primarily had contact with the design teams, so I cannot directly comment on this. I will say that IBM takes issues with the systems quite seriously at least on the business side of things.
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
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On 01/07/2017 09:14 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
Ah thanks for the info, I had thought all IBM POWER8 systems had open firmware :( So to confirm, the more reasonably priced S812LC for 4.8K doesn't have it? What a shame.
Correct. The S812LC is loaded with proprietary firmware; as I think I've mentioned before Raptor Engineering would be willing to port the libre firmware to the S812LC under contract, but it would probably take a few interested parties pooling resources to actually fund the work since this would be a full hardware reverse engineering effort plus a port of two very complex (much larger than coreboot!) firmware projects.
Yeah I proselytized by asking them a few questions on the web-form but they never replied. I asked them: If you can use them as workstations by slotting in a graphics card and attaching it to a VM like with x86 IOMMU GFX.
Yes. We've actually done this with dual Radeon cards. The catch is you won't be able to use drivers that you don't have the source code for since almost no manufacturer compiles their proprietary drivers for POWER at this time (IBM seems to be hedging that open drivers are actually better for POWER systems).
Which systems have open blob free firmware and how easy it is to do a user-compile/flash.
Palmetto is the only one at the moment. The S822LC is close but needs a bit more work to get it all working together. No other system is anywhere near blob-free at this time.
What is the difference between the shipping firmware and the "open" firmware.
For the system firmware, not much, mainly a collection of internal IBM machine-patches needed to get the system booting that were not applicable to the upstream tree in the state they were in. For the BMC, it's the difference between a fully closed AMI network-enabled firmware and the libre BMC firmware.
Man things are really going to hell these days, nothing we buy is really ours - even the box of trash bags in my kitchen has an EULA printed on the bottom.
+1. The community needs to step up and fund libre systems wherever possible, even if that just means helping port libre firmware to modern systems that can still accept it. Modern machines are too complex for a single "cowboy coder" / hacker to make much difference I'm afraid.
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
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Leah Rowe -
Paul Kocialkowski -
Taiidan＠gmx.com -
Timothy Pearson