Has any one ever thought of making a gaming console using LinuxBIOS? I would like to put one together using open standard hardware and with a linux based OS.
The goal, to create a openstandard/opensource game console. Then game companies can make games for low prices since this system doesn't have to deal in royalties.
I hear the Xbox360 will be around $300 and the games $60. I think that's complete bull spit. I think it's time for people in the Linux world to make our own game console.
We made a operating system as an alternative to Windows now it's time to do the same with their game console.
We gave the computer world freedom now lets give the gaming world freedom so junior (as well as adults) aren't spending arm and leg for games, consoles and other parts.
It's not just money I want people to save but to give them back freedom in the technology they use.
The hardware side of this project is easy. The hard part is putting together a small Linux OS for it and customizing LinuxBIOS for this kind of system. If any one wants to start such project let me know. All I have are ideas, what I don't have is the knowledge to pull this off.
Which is why I need some of you talented people to help me start a project to pull this off.
The hardware side of this project is easy. The hard part is putting together a small Linux OS for it and customizing LinuxBIOS for this kind of system. If any one wants to start such project let me know. All I have are ideas, what I don't have is the knowledge to pull this off.
What hardware do you have in mind? To me the software of this actually seems like the easy part. There are loads of ways to make a small customized linux image.
http://www.emdebian.org/ http://familiar.handhelds.org/ http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ http://openwrt.org/ http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ http://www.pengutronix.de/software/ptxdist_en.html
Just to get started....
Not quite so small but has loads of stuff you would need..
http://www.geexbox.org/en/index.html
Horsepower wise though you are really going to have some beef to compete with the graphics power of the Xbox or ps2 line of products. That means the later nvidia or ATI cards.
A gaming console is also going to need some sort of low noise, smaller type case setup.
Neither of the above is cheap. $300 is a would be a pretty good deal for what you get if it wern't for the stupid DRM they use. Although I think ps2 has linux dev kit for it dosen't it?
On Wednesday 24 August 2005 01:22 am, Richard Smith wrote:
What hardware do you have in mind?
I'd like it to be designed so any retail hardware off the shelf will do, but if we are to start a small business making these things I would try the best I can to make something that would cost less then say current game consoles. So any hardware that would accomplish this would work. I don't remember what the current XBOX cost, around $150 I think. The XBOX360 I belive is going to be close to $300 when it comes out. So it has to be hardware that would keep the over all price below the current consoles.
After all we wouldn't want to build a system that cost more then the xbox360, then people will get this idea that Linux systems are more expensive then MS systems. We need to build something that says "Linux saves people money."
To me the software of this actually seems like the easy part. There are loads of ways to make a small customized linux image.
http://www.emdebian.org/ http://familiar.handhelds.org/ http://www.linuxfromscratch.org/ http://openwrt.org/ http://www.damnsmalllinux.org/ http://www.pengutronix.de/software/ptxdist_en.html
It's easy when you know how. ;) I've still a Linux newbie my self. As of now I don't have the current knowledge to build a brand new Linux Distro from scratch. But I will look at those links. If you ever played with an Xbox you'll know that when you turn it on it loads to it's menu (with no game in it) pretty quick. Which made me think to use LinuxBIOS. Current BIOS wouldn't be able to pull this off. When you put a game in the xbox it loads up right away. no installing any thing except if you forgot to plug in your controller. I want to build a open gaming system with the same principles of user friendlyness. Many people have hacked the xbox to install a custom linux distro onto the xbox by replacing the "xbox live" menu entry with a Linux entry.
I want to build this new system with the same kind of easy to use menu system when you turn it on and I want it to have a menu entry to start up a regular sized distro if people want that to. This new system will have the primary purpose of being an alternative to the xbox.
Because of legal reasons it may not be able to play encrypted dvds but should be able to play cds just fine. But it should also be flexible enough so you can do any thing else with it.
The DVD part doesn't have to be a impossibility, if it became popular enough other companies might decide to make software to play encrypted movies on this system. For this system to be devoted to open standards and be sold in stores I wouldn't be able to provide any software for dvds with out breaking retarded patent laws. But that wouldn't stop other business from providing products to over come this. That way who ever makes this system don't have to deal with royaltie issues.
Horsepower wise though you are really going to have some beef to compete with the graphics power of the Xbox or ps2 line of products. That means the later nvidia or ATI cards.
I would use nvidia. I find they have better support and drivers for Linux. Thought I would prefer to find hardware with open standard "chip sets" so any one can make open source drivers for them but I'm dreaming now. I've seen some pretty nice video cards on newegg.com that's not to old that should be able to handle the latest games. The first xbox had a 800 mhz CPU, it didn't even have a fan on the heat sink but the GPU did.
A gaming console is also going to need some sort of low noise, smaller type case setup.
I've seen some nice microATX desktop cases on newegg.com. So those should do nicely. The thing to watch out for is heat and the power suplies they come with. I've been told by some people the ones they have have crap power supplies and ended up getting their own.
Neither of the above is cheap. $300 is a would be a pretty good deal for what you get if it wern't for the stupid DRM they use.
Now that I re-think it, building this system by hand, we would end up making a gaming system that would cost more than current systems but cost less than current desktop computers at Best Buy. And since this new system will be a hybrid of both I see no reason why this thing wouldn't sell like crazy.
Although I think ps2 has linux dev kit for it dosen't it?
The first ps2 had one, it was a hard drive with linux installed on it and you just insert it into the ps2. Sony came out with a newer thinner version of the ps2 and doesn't have the hard drive slot nor do they sell the kit any more. Not in the US any way.
On 8/24/05, Nathaniel Dube avatarofvirgo@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday 24 August 2005 01:22 am, Richard Smith wrote:
What hardware do you have in mind?
I'd like it to be designed so any retail hardware off the shelf will do, but if we are to start a small business making these things I would try the best
Well LinuxBIOS only runs on a fairly small family of chipsets. The bulk of LinuxBIOS applications are in linux clusters or embedded systems. Neither of which would classify as "retail hardware" unless you want to build game consoles out of dual Opteron boxes. The higher end VIA eden boards might qualify but support for them is still under developement.
Actually a dual opteron and a recient PCI-Express video card would probally make a pretty bad ass gameing machine. *grin* Only cost you about $2k
the current XBOX cost, around $150 I think. The XBOX360 I belive is going to be close to $300 when it comes out. So it has to be hardware that would keep the over all price below the current consoles.
Going to be tough since those products are sold at a loss.
you'll know that when you turn it on it loads to it's menu (with no game in it) pretty quick. Which made me think to use LinuxBIOS. Current BIOS
That would be an excellent use of LinuxBIOS and I'd love to see it happen. Boot time graphics however are currently _not_ one of LB's strong points. But I suppose that if you can get to a Linuxframe buffer in say 1 or 2 seconds then you could load up a simple initrd that would make that pretty easy.
Now that I re-think it, building this system by hand, we would end up making a gaming system that would cost more than current systems but cost less than current desktop computers at Best Buy. And since this new system will be a hybrid of both I see no reason why this thing wouldn't sell like crazy.
I'm sure thats what Indrema thought as well. Making a commercial product is a daunting task. _Especially_ in the PC market. I'm not so sure it would be that much cheaper than a normal desktop.
This is kinda veering OT for linuxbios though.. So we should probally take it off list.
On Wed, Aug 24, 2005 at 03:05:40AM -0500, Richard Smith wrote:
Well LinuxBIOS only runs on a fairly small family of chipsets. The bulk of LinuxBIOS applications are in linux clusters or embedded systems. Neither of which would classify as "retail hardware" unless you want to build game consoles out of dual Opteron boxes. The higher end VIA eden boards might qualify but support for them is still under developement.
It can be ported. *mantra*
the current XBOX cost, around $150 I think. The XBOX360 I belive is going to be close to $300 when it comes out. So it has to be hardware that would keep the over all price below the current consoles.
Going to be tough since those products are sold at a loss.
Actually I had an idea recently that I've been persuing, is a portable free player developed around VIA's CLE266+VT8235 chipsets.
Think of it. Basic 3d acceleration from VIA CLE266, 640x480 lcd screen, slot loading cd burner+dvd, CompactFlash and CardBus slots, host usb, and firewire.
Could: * Play audio CDs and Ogg Vorbis (and others) * Rip audio CDs to CompactFlash * Watch DVDs * Play huge games (dvd sized!) * Play multiplayer-network games via cardbus WIFI * Connect to USB keyboard/mouse to use as mini-laptop * Connect to TV and USB controllers for home use * Can download games and burn to CD
Can't beat the price of many handheld game players (Sony PSP $190, while this would cost closer to $350) but when you consider the cost of a seperate music player, the larger screen, and (this is the key to it)... you - don't have to pay $35/game!
Consider that, if the free software game community grows, with say 20 "commercial quality" games and a few hundred smaller ones, the system beats the mainstream systems' price after just a few games.
To reduce cost (about $80) the CD drive could be an add-on option, plugging onto the bottom of the unit, leaving the unit smaller and under $300. Plus, then a harddrive add-on could be produced as well. :-)
And as was suggested earlier in the thread, the circuit, case, etc could be under the GPL just like the GumStix, with the BIOS being GPL'ed, etc. allowing multiple manufacturers to produce these units.
I think the market is ready for a portable unit you can play at home, and which *CAN* but doesn't nessesarily have to be your portable music player too, which can run any number of different games, not just those which are licensed through a central authority.
And as was suggested earlier in the thread, the circuit, case, etc could be under the GPL just like the GumStix, with the BIOS being GPL'ed, etc. allowing multiple manufacturers to produce these units.
I think the market is ready for a portable unit you can play at home, and which *CAN* but doesn't nessesarily have to be your portable music player too, which can run any number of different games, not just those which are licensed through a central authority.
Oh. I agree. Look athe the success of projects like MythTV in fact I would suggest that MythTV is a very good base to start since it has really good media support all ready.
I don't want to discourage development at all. A GPL game console would be excellent and a great feather in the cap of LinuxBIOS.
Just don't be thinking you are going to get the same kind of performance you get from a commercial unit without spending 2 to 3x what they cost. Haveing really a reallly good software engine may help to minimize this but to get a _really_ good software engine you have to have good knowledge of the hardware. With the current graphics landscape thats hard and boderline impossible to get.
One glimmer of hope. If you can work with these guys
http://lists.duskglow.com/mailman/listinfo/open-graphics
you might actually be able to drive a small market for it.
I'm interested in it since Bitworks is capable of producing board runs on the level you are talking about. Say like 25 - 100 units. You can do like the MegaSquirt people do. Start an escrow account and take orders until you get enough that you can have it built. If the schematics, and gerbers, and BOM are alreday done then thats a lot of the cost of having a custom run built.
Of course whoever does the prototype(s) is going to pay a chunk. Perhaps you could seek some funding somewhere? Most of the groundwork issues could be worked out with COTS stuff thats available already.
Arc wrote:
Consider that, if the free software game community grows, with say 20 "commercial quality" games and a few hundred smaller ones, the system beats the mainstream systems' price after just a few games.
To reduce cost (about $80) the CD drive could be an add-on option, plugging onto the bottom of the unit, leaving the unit smaller and under $300. Plus, then a harddrive add-on could be produced as well. :-)
And as was suggested earlier in the thread, the circuit, case, etc could be under the GPL just like the GumStix, with the BIOS being GPL'ed, etc. allowing multiple manufacturers to produce these units.
I think the market is ready for a portable unit you can play at home, and which *CAN* but doesn't nessesarily have to be your portable music player too, which can run any number of different games, not just those which are licensed through a central authority.
We've designed several systems like this in the past that were either handheld, STB, aerospace or automotive/telematics based on mips, arm, SH and x86.
Software support has always been the issue. It used to be a problem getting Linux to support all the multimedia. Now multimedia on Linux is working quite well.
You'll still need to get the interest of the game developers. Can they be made happy selling $5-$10 games if they need to invest millions in development to make the games exciting enough for players to buy?
-Bari
I was wondering how difficult/useful it would be to have a very small bios that boots enough to get on the network and then loads the working bios from there. I keep making little changes (printing stuff out) and it is a pain to keep burning Roms. This would also let you have as big a bios as you want. In a cluster you could make a bios change just by updating one file.
Steve
On 8/31/05, Steve Casselman sc@drccomputer.com wrote:
I was wondering how difficult/useful it would be to
Considering its already done. Not very.
The real question is "is the hardware you want to do this on supported?"
Why don't we use VR5500A,
http://www.necel.com./micro/english/product/vr/vr5000series/index.html
it seems amazing and comes with a development kit (teacube) . Have you heard about it?
There is a lot of potential. We can even use
http://www.cirrus.com/en/products/pro/detail/P1061.html
which has DRM but a lot of useful features
we can also use http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7757625666.html or http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7303651216.html
or
http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS2122942691.html (without the sdk of course)
Vasileios Anagnostopoulos wrote:
Why don't we use VR5500A,
http://www.necel.com./micro/english/product/vr/vr5000series/index.html
No 3-D graphics. NEC did have a nice 3d graphics accelerator that was used mainly in the Sega Dreamcast along with a Hitach SH-4 back in 2000.
The SH-5 is nice but only available as a core. SH-6 and 7 also looked great on paper - Fast cores, memory and FPU's.
No floating point or 3D graphics here again, 200MHz core, 100MHz shared bus for SDRAM and I/O. If it's around $5 like some Freescale iMX's http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/homepage.jsp?nodeId=01J4Fs2973 it might be nice for a handheld version of a game unit.
http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS7757625666.html http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS7303651216.html http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS2122942691.html (without the sdk of course)
3D graphics support would be weak here again since the PCI bus would be choked by a 3D graphics controller hung off of it.
Network, sound, MPEG-2,3,4, playback and even some recording is working pretty well on several ARM, Mips and SH platforms.
The weak spot is always 3D graphics performance. Even the Intel PXA's with the 2700G accelerator http://developer.intel.com/design/pca/prodbref/300571.htm performs at the level of a several generations old ATI or Nvidia controller.
ST Nomadik has lots to offer as well but weak in 3D graphics support http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/11196/stn8810.pdf
as does the Philips Nexperia's http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/products/nexperia/index.html
and Equator http://www.equator.com/
lots of multimedia to offer as well but weak in or without 3D graphics support.
Just my humble opinion, I could be wrong.
-Bari
ST Nomadik has lots to offer as well but weak in 3D graphics support http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/11196/stn8810.pdf
I've had a pretty piss poor experience with STPC and ST. So i'd have to recommend against any of thier products.
as does the Philips Nexperia's http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/products/nexperia/index.html
I'm currently in the tail end of a large project that uses the PNX1500 and I can 100% say that working with this chip would be a large undertaking. The developement system _sucks_. One of the worst I've used. You thought a LinuxBIOS setup and compile was difficult somtimes. Its a breeze compared to the Phillips PNX stuff. Imagine if linux bios was 5 times its current size and the entire build system was written in perl.
All of the example source and system libraries come with headers that explictly forbid using the code or library in conjunction with _any_ open source type code. On top of that the chip (1500) is buggy.
All that said its a hauling ass video processing chip. We are doing realtime MPEG video encoding with it. But dosen't have any 3D graphics capabilities.
TrollTech has some sort of linux offering for the Nexperia phone platform but I've not looked at it.
Richard Smith wrote:
I'm currently in the tail end of a large project that uses the PNX1500 and I can 100% say that working with this chip would be a large undertaking. The developement system _sucks_. One of the worst I've used. You thought a LinuxBIOS setup and compile was difficult somtimes. Its a breeze compared to the Phillips PNX stuff. Imagine if linux bios was 5 times its current size and the entire build system was written in perl.
All of the example source and system libraries come with headers that explictly forbid using the code or library in conjunction with _any_ open source type code. On top of that the chip (1500) is buggy.
All that said its a hauling ass video processing chip. We are doing realtime MPEG video encoding with it. But dosen't have any 3D graphics capabilities.
Linux on the Nomadik and the Nexperia's would be lot's of work with little support I agree. Philips never seems to release any source.
To bad SH never evolved since they had great floating point units. SH-6 or 7's with PCIe and larger caches would be great for multimedia and clusters. http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020118S0007
ARM has lots of Linux support but I have never found production silicon of an ARM core with FPU's and PCIe.
http://www.arm.linux.org.uk/ http://www.arm.com/
-Bari
Would there be any thing wrong with using something along the lines of a SFF based computer. Something like. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/barebone/brb_OverView.asp?B_id=26
Some of the older systems are cheap, and we dont need buy/build a nice case and power supply. The box comes in at around $180 for the case, power supply and motherboard. I dont think we will be able to build an itx based system for less. These systems are very fast and allows for us to use any graphics card we want. Just an idea.
-Adam Talbot
Richard Smith wrote:
ST Nomadik has lots to offer as well but weak in 3D graphics support http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/bd/11196/stn8810.pdf
I've had a pretty piss poor experience with STPC and ST. So i'd have to recommend against any of thier products.
as does the Philips Nexperia's http://www.semiconductors.philips.com/products/nexperia/index.html
I'm currently in the tail end of a large project that uses the PNX1500 and I can 100% say that working with this chip would be a large undertaking. The developement system _sucks_. One of the worst I've used. You thought a LinuxBIOS setup and compile was difficult somtimes. Its a breeze compared to the Phillips PNX stuff. Imagine if linux bios was 5 times its current size and the entire build system was written in perl.
All of the example source and system libraries come with headers that explictly forbid using the code or library in conjunction with _any_ open source type code. On top of that the chip (1500) is buggy.
All that said its a hauling ass video processing chip. We are doing realtime MPEG video encoding with it. But dosen't have any 3D graphics capabilities.
TrollTech has some sort of linux offering for the Nexperia phone platform but I've not looked at it.
Adam Talbot wrote:
Would there be any thing wrong with using something along the lines of a SFF based computer. Something like. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/barebone/brb_OverView.asp?B_id=26
Some of the older systems are cheap, and we dont need buy/build a nice case and power supply. The box comes in at around $180 for the case, power supply and motherboard. I dont think we will be able to build an itx based system for less. These systems are very fast and allows for us to use any graphics card we want. Just an idea.
It's great, except that socket A cpu's are about to totally disappear from production. Here are the current AMD roadmaps and status:
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_609,00.html...
http://www.amd.com/us-en/Processors/ProductInformation/0,,30_118_608,00.html
Look at socket 754 based systems for a bit more life. Semprons look like the current bargains.
Any input from AMD on the cpu sweet spots for the next year?
-Bari
On 1 Sep 2005, at 04:02, Bari Ari wrote:
Adam Talbot wrote:
Would there be any thing wrong with using something along the lines of a SFF based computer. Something like. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/barebone/brb_OverView.asp?B_id=26 Some of the older systems are cheap, and we dont need buy/build a nice case and power supply. The box comes in at around $180 for the case, power supply and motherboard. I dont think we will be able to build an itx based system for less. These systems are very fast and allows for us to use any graphics card we want. Just an idea.
It's great, except that socket A cpu's are about to totally disappear from production. Here are the current AMD roadmaps and status:
Except the Geode NX (which is basically the old Athlon mobile) which is staying in socket A it seems http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/ 0,,50_2330_9863_10837%5E10858,00.html
Justin
I have no problems with a 939 based board. The major problem there is the nForce 4 chipset. Most of the 939 SFF are based of the Nforce chips. So far i think linux bios has never run on a nForce based board. Is that correct? -Adam
Justin Cormack wrote:
On 1 Sep 2005, at 04:02, Bari Ari wrote:
Adam Talbot wrote:
Would there be any thing wrong with using something along the lines of a SFF based computer. Something like. http://global.shuttle.com/Product/barebone/brb_OverView.asp?B_id=26 Some of the older systems are cheap, and we dont need buy/build a nice case and power supply. The box comes in at around $180 for the case, power supply and motherboard. I dont think we will be able to build an itx based system for less. These systems are very fast and allows for us to use any graphics card we want. Just an idea.
It's great, except that socket A cpu's are about to totally disappear from production. Here are the current AMD roadmaps and status:
Except the Geode NX (which is basically the old Athlon mobile) which is staying in socket A it seems http://www.amd.com/us-en/ConnectivitySolutions/ProductInformation/ 0,,50_2330_9863_10837%5E10858,00.html
Justin
On Thu, Sep 01, 2005 at 10:33:22AM -0700, Adam Talbot wrote:
I have no problems with a 939 based board. The major problem there is the nForce 4 chipset. Most of the 939 SFF are based of the Nforce chips. So far i think linux bios has never run on a nForce based board. Is that correct?
That's less of an issue than their hardware accelerated 3d support being only available through proprietary drivers. That nice GPU is worthless on a game console if you can't boot with it, but instead have some cheesy 2d splash screen while the system boots to the point that the nVidia drivers and X11 can load.
That's one reason why VIA is a better option, and why we need to support them. Unlike nVidia, it's possible to build a 3d bootloader which doesn't require a full "boot" to get you through the first screen or two. It's also possible to build support directly into the kernel making booting faster.
That's less of an issue than their hardware accelerated 3d support being only available through proprietary drivers. That nice GPU is worthless
An "Open" gaming console that depends on proprietary drivers is probally not a good marketing tool. *grin*
If you do not want mips/arm you can use Epia SP 13000 which can be supported quite easily with linuxbios !!!
Vasileios Anagnostopoulos wrote:
If you do not want mips/arm you can use Epia SP 13000 which can be supported quite easily with linuxbios !!!
SP 13000 support is in the works.
epiOS is a Linux package with all the Epia driver support and tweaks: http://www.epios.net/
Unichrome 3-D graphics support is already there with all the open source to the 3d and Mpeg accelerator libraries. http://unichrome.sourceforge.net/
-Bari
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Adam Talbot -
Arc -
Bari Ari -
Justin Cormack -
Nathaniel Dube -
Richard Smith -
Steve Casselman -
Vasileios Anagnostopoulos