Doubts about necessity of propietary parts in the firmware

[xdrudis]

Hello.

First things first: thank you all for working in coreboot, yet another
free software project I wouldn't think possible if you hadn't made it
real.

I've been reading the archives and browsing coreboot.org, but I have
little clue about firmware so I still have doubts I would like  to 
clear beforing buying/building my next computer

VGA BIOS .

Is it necessary ?. I've seen some reports of using coreboot with a
propietary VGA BIOS, either run from the graphics card ROM or reaped
from the motherboard propietary BIOS. Is this an intermediate state in
development and it is eventually replaced with free code ? or we're
not there (yet?). Can one live without any VGA BIOS ? Leaving it out
means coreboot boots blindly but then (a deblobed) linux/X initializes
the graphics hardware all right and you have display just like with
VGA BIOS, only later in the boot process ? Or the GPU can't be used
without the propietary VGA BIOS ? Can GRUB display a menu without VGA
BIOS ? (SGA BIOS doesn't seem useful here, since I don't want to use a
serial link forever) Btw, can GRUB show background images without VGA
BIOS ?  Do these answers depend on the GPU or northbridge ?

Double graphics is a problem ?

As far as I know the only modern desktop class chipsets supported by
the manufacturer, are AMD RS780/SB700 , am I wrong ? (thanks, AMD!). I
think all come with an ATI IGP , which requires blobs in the linux/X
driver (AtomBIOS).  I may be misinformed on AtomBIOS, but I think I
don't want to use it.  I've heard nouveau has just deblobed its
driver, so I might add an Nvidia graphics card to it (at least while
Open Graphics Project isn't ready for consumers). I'll try to buy one
second hand, as lesser evil, since I dislike buying directly from
vendors not supporting free software. Does having both the ATI IGP and
the Nvidia card give any additional complication ? (besides it's going
to be less tested than more usual setups). I wish Intel supported
coreboot or radeonhd didn't use AtomBIOS (like it once was).

Any AMD RS780/SB700 boards roadmap ?

Any hints which AMD RS780/SB700 boards are going to be supported first ?
(I'm using the suggestions I see on the mailing list, but I've heard of 
GSoC potential effort and I don't know if there're priorities already set 
for it)

DDR3 coming soon ?

I've heard optimism on DDR3 but I believe it's not yet supported by coreboot.
Do you have any estimation on how long can it take or how much would it cost
if someone was to pay for it ? (I don't think I can pay, it's just to quantify the
effort). For now I'm planning to avoid DDR3 just in case. I'm not sure it's 
a huge performance benefit.

How to choose socketed boards ?

How can one know whether a card has socketed or soldered BIOS ROMs besides
looking at it or some photos ? Should it be in the specs or manual ?
(I don't trust myself with a soldering iron).

TPM

I don't like Treacherous Computing and the like so I would prefer to
buy a motherboard without TPM. If I can get coreboot to run then the TPM may
become harmless, but I still don't want to encourage vendors to put TPM in.
The question is, are there security benefits if you control the firmware,
like you would eventually increase security by using your own keys, or
are the keys hardwired and unreplaceable so that the best you can hope
for is to disable them? I don't really know how many  boards without TPM 
are in the market, anyway.

Thanks for reading so far and sorry for abusing this list thus. I'm
going to include a little background now, but your answers can help me
even without you reading further.

I'm a professional programmer, and I studied Enginyeria Tècnica de
Sistemes Informàtics before completing it to Enginyeria Informàtica
(that's a 3 years degree in computer systems engineering, followed
with the courses to turn it into a 5 years degree in computing). But I
wasn't really interested in electronics and we didn't see anything
about firmware.  I did some exercises in 8086 and M68000 assembler,
some C for operating systems and so on, but I don't have professional
experience on it. Never wrote drivers or so on. I've worked more on
web apps, web services and business applications.  So I hope I can
learn enough to test things without bricking my board, but not really
to help develop anything.

I used to buy laptops with intel IGP, because they had free drivers
but now that my current laptop is getting older I looked for current
hardware and found out about Intel Active Management Technology and
DASH by AMD et al, and from that I discovered SMM. I used to think the
BIOS was a small piece of code that was only used for booting and I
could then forget it, but now I'm a bit more afraid of remote control
with propietary BIOSes.

I would like a computer with as little propietary software as
possible, but yet powerful enough to compile quick enough, and ideally
able to run a couple of distributions virtualized to test
stuff. Something like 4-8 Gb of RAM (8 -16 Gb maximum) , buses as fast
as possible, a somewhat fast CPU, and a reasonably fast hard drive,
with a DVD burner. No bleeding edge, just not too old. 1 or 2 years
old technology would be fine. I don't mind 3D acceleration, but I
don't really need it. I'd prefer a laptop, but Rocky is too heavy
(assuming I could get one), and the rest are too difficult for me to
try coreboot on them, so I may end up buying parts to assemble a
desktop PC (and maybe a lemote to use as a terminal?). I think desktop
because of my use of it, but if I can a buy a server that gets closer
to this and isn't too expensive, then I will.

Buying preferently from vendors who behave more favorably to free
software, develop it or properly document its products is a secondary
goal. If I have to buy from other vendors then I'd rather buy second
hand, not that it is very useful, but at least I wouldn't directly
increase their sales figures.  Boot speed is nice to have but not
decisive and legacy compatibility or propietary software support is
unwanted (ok, I could live with it if it's a necessary side effect).

I'd like to use my computer with gNewSense or a similar 100% free
distribution and be confident that no third party can break into it or
decide what I can do with it (or at least that I keep trying by
patching any holes, or at least that the system is not designed for
remote control), but I want to access the internet with it.

If this is a tall order, then I just want to get as close to it as
possible.  I would like to buy and/or build a computer soon which is
as close as possible to someday reach that goal, maybe after some
more effort in software/firmware, or after hardware upgrades.

And of course I'm just a consumer, with no business plans about any of
this.

I welcome any advice on this.

Thank you.

[Marc Jones]

Hi Xavi,

Thanks for your interest in coreboot. This is a long email! :)

I have made some small comments below.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2010 at 3:07 PM, xdrudis  wrote:
> Hello.
>
> First things first: thank you all for working in coreboot, yet another
> free software project I wouldn't think possible if you hadn't made it
> real.
>
> I've been reading the archives and browsing coreboot.org, but I have
> little clue about firmware so I still have doubts I would like  to
> clear beforing buying/building my next computer
>
> VGA BIOS .
>
> Is it necessary ?. I've seen some reports of using coreboot with a
> propietary VGA BIOS, either run from the graphics card ROM or reaped
> from the motherboard propietary BIOS. Is this an intermediate state in
> development and it is eventually replaced with free code ? or we're
> not there (yet?). Can one live without any VGA BIOS ? Leaving it out
> means coreboot boots blindly but then (a deblobed) linux/X initializes
> the graphics hardware all right and you have display just like with
> VGA BIOS, only later in the boot process ? Or the GPU can't be used
> without the propietary VGA BIOS ? Can GRUB display a menu without VGA
> BIOS ? (SGA BIOS doesn't seem useful here, since I don't want to use a
> serial link forever) Btw, can GRUB show background images without VGA
> BIOS ?  Do these answers depend on the GPU or northbridge ?

VGA BIOS is not required. You could have a headless system. Or a
system with a framebuffer driver like Geode.
> Double graphics is a problem ?
>
> As far as I know the only modern desktop class chipsets supported by
> the manufacturer, are AMD RS780/SB700 , am I wrong ? (thanks, AMD!). I
> think all come with an ATI IGP , which requires blobs in the linux/X
> driver (AtomBIOS).  I may be misinformed on AtomBIOS, but I think I
> don't want to use it.  I've heard nouveau has just deblobed its
> driver, so I might add an Nvidia graphics card to it (at least while
> Open Graphics Project isn't ready for consumers). I'll try to buy one
> second hand, as lesser evil, since I dislike buying directly from
> vendors not supporting free software. Does having both the ATI IGP and
> the Nvidia card give any additional complication ? (besides it's going
> to be less tested than more usual setups). I wish Intel supported
> coreboot or radeonhd didn't use AtomBIOS (like it once was).

This is a continued area of development, but yes, many drivers use the
vbios too hold proprietary information. Again, not an issue if you are
running a headless machine.
> Any AMD RS780/SB700 boards roadmap ?
>
> Any hints which AMD RS780/SB700 boards are going to be supported first ?
> (I'm using the suggestions I see on the mailing list, but I've heard of
> GSoC potential effort and I don't know if there're priorities already set
> for it)

There is no specific roadmap. This is usually driven by board
availability. I think some boards will be ported during GSoC. If you
have a preferred board, send an email to the list. Someone might be
working on it.
> DDR3 coming soon ?
>
> I've heard optimism on DDR3 but I believe it's not yet supported by coreboot.
> Do you have any estimation on how long can it take or how much would it cost
> if someone was to pay for it ? (I don't think I can pay, it's just to quantify the
> effort). For now I'm planning to avoid DDR3 just in case. I'm not sure it's
> a huge performance benefit.

I think that DDR3 support will be critical for coreboot this year. I
am optimistic that we will get some help from AMD this summer.
> How to choose socketed boards ?
>
> How can one know whether a card has socketed or soldered BIOS ROMs besides
> looking at it or some photos ? Should it be in the specs or manual ?
> (I don't trust myself with a soldering iron).

This will usually be in the manual. Many boards are SPI flash now and
you need an external programmer with a test clip to program them. This
is an area we need to improve on the wiki.
> TPM
>
> I don't like Treacherous Computing and the like so I would prefer to
> buy a motherboard without TPM. If I can get coreboot to run then the TPM may
> become harmless, but I still don't want to encourage vendors to put TPM in.
> The question is, are there security benefits if you control the firmware,
> like you would eventually increase security by using your own keys, or
> are the keys hardwired and unreplaceable so that the best you can hope
> for is to disable them? I don't really know how many  boards without TPM
> are in the market, anyway.
>
> Thanks for reading so far and sorry for abusing this list thus. I'm
> going to include a little background now, but your answers can help me
> even without you reading further.

....
> If this is a tall order, then I just want to get as close to it as
> possible.  I would like to buy and/or build a computer soon which is
> as close as possible to someday reach that goal, maybe after some
> more effort in software/firmware, or after hardware upgrades.
>
> And of course I'm just a consumer, with no business plans about any of
> this.

These are great goals. It sounds like you have a lot in common with
the folks at the FSF. :)

There are a couple AMD and Intel platforms that might meet your needs.
I expect more boards (like the 780/710) to be supported this summer if
you are willing to wait. I am also hopeful that we see coreboot on
systems available from vendors in the future.

Marc

Doubts about necessity of propietary parts in the firmware

[xdrudis]

On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 09:44:02AM -0600, Marc Jones wrote:
> Hi Xavi,
>
> Thanks for your interest in coreboot. This is a long email! :)

I'm bad at summarizing. Sorry.
> VGA BIOS is not required. You could have a headless system. Or a
> system with a framebuffer driver like Geode.

Headless would be last resort. If possible I would like to have a
monitor connected to the system (either mainboard or graphics card)
and have a desktop there. I don't need video while booting (but I
would appreciate it, of course). I understand this is possible
depending on the GPU.  When you say a system with a framebuffer you
mean any system with linux User Mode Setting should work without
propietary VGA BIOS ?
> > Double graphics is a problem ?
> >
> > As far as I know the only modern desktop class chipsets supported by
> > the manufacturer, are AMD RS780/SB700 , am I wrong ? (thanks, AMD!). I
> > think all come with an ATI IGP , which requires blobs in the linux/X
> > driver (AtomBIOS).  I may be misinformed on AtomBIOS, but I think I
> > don't want to use it.  I've heard nouveau has just deblobed its
> > driver, so I might add an Nvidia graphics card to it (at least while
> > Open Graphics Project isn't ready for consumers). I'll try to buy one
> > second hand, as lesser evil, since I dislike buying directly from
> > vendors not supporting free software. Does having both the ATI IGP and
> > the Nvidia card give any additional complication ? (besides it's going
> > to be less tested than more usual setups). I wish Intel supported
> > coreboot or radeonhd didn't use AtomBIOS (like it once was).
>
> This is a continued area of development, but yes, many drivers use the
> vbios too hold proprietary information. Again, not an issue if you are
> running a headless machine.

Do  you mean deblobing linux/X graphics drivers is a continued area of development
or supporting IGP + graphics card in coreboot (if it needs some speacial support
by corebbot) is a continued area of development ?
> There is no specific roadmap. This is usually driven by board
> availability. I think some boards will be ported during GSoC. If you
> have a preferred board, send an email to the list. Someone might be
> working on it.

I don't have a prefered board (yet). I was thinking of picking one 
of the few that people has shown some interest in here in the list.
That might be best for me as a newbie as I wouldn't be alone even 
if it is not currently supported yet. I'm not sure if it would be 
best for the project (having more that one test instance for the
same board ) or it would be best to have as many different boards
to test as possible.
> I think that DDR3 support will be critical for coreboot this year. I
> am optimistic that we will get some help from AMD this summer.

Ok, I can wait, I guess. I can start by the OS, test flashrom 
with the propietary bios, etc. and handle coreboot proper later.
> > How to choose socketed boards ?
> >
> > How can one know whether a card has socketed or soldered BIOS ROMs besides
> > looking at it or some photos ? Should it be in the specs or manual ?
> > (I don't trust myself with a soldering iron).
>
> This will usually be in the manual. Many boards are SPI flash now and
> you need an external programmer with a test clip to program them. This
> is an area we need to improve on the wiki.

I had read something (either in coreboot wiki or from some link there)
but I no longer find it. I thought SPI could be socketed or soldered.
> These are great goals. It sounds like you have a lot in common with
> the folks at the FSF. :)

In goals, we have a lot in common, I'm just less active pursuing them.
> There are a couple AMD and Intel platforms that might meet your needs.

Are there ? I've been looking at the supported mainboards and found
few that I could buy currently in a shop and are relatively
powerful. I'll look again.
> I expect more boards (like the 780/710) to be supported this summer if
> you are willing to wait. I am also hopeful that we see coreboot on
> systems available from vendors in the future.

I've already wited quite a lot, and my current laptop is falling
apart.  So I may buy soon, but I may install coreboot later (I
understand buying before getting support may be risky). I'd like to
buy something with coreboot preinstalled, but that may be the next
system I buy after whatever I get now. In your products page I've seen
a couple of servers with coreboot I might get, but they're a bit
expensive for what I was thinking.

Thanks for your help.

[Qing Pei Wang]

hi,

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 5:51 AM, xdrudis  wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 13, 2010 at 09:44:02AM -0600, Marc Jones wrote:
> > Hi Xavi,
> >
> > Thanks for your interest in coreboot. This is a long email! :)
>
> I'm bad at summarizing. Sorry.
> > VGA BIOS is not required. You could have a headless system. Or a
> > system with a framebuffer driver like Geode.
>
> Headless would be last resort. If possible I would like to have a
> monitor connected to the system (either mainboard or graphics card)
> and have a desktop there. I don't need video while booting (but I
> would appreciate it, of course). I understand this is possible
> depending on the GPU.  When you say a system with a framebuffer you
> mean any system with linux User Mode Setting should work without
> propietary VGA BIOS ?

i think what marc said means these mainboard which has framebuffer driver.
> > > Double graphics is a problem ?
> > >
> > > As far as I know the only modern desktop class chipsets supported by
> > > the manufacturer, are AMD RS780/SB700 , am I wrong ? (thanks, AMD!). I
> > > think all come with an ATI IGP , which requires blobs in the linux/X
> > > driver (AtomBIOS).  I may be misinformed on AtomBIOS, but I think I
> > > don't want to use it.  I've heard nouveau has just deblobed its
> > > driver, so I might add an Nvidia graphics card to it (at least while
> > > Open Graphics Project isn't ready for consumers). I'll try to buy one
> > > second hand, as lesser evil, since I dislike buying directly from
> > > vendors not supporting free software. Does having both the ATI IGP and
> > > the Nvidia card give any additional complication ? (besides it's going
> > > to be less tested than more usual setups). I wish Intel supported
> > > coreboot or radeonhd didn't use AtomBIOS (like it once was).
> >
> > This is a continued area of development, but yes, many drivers use the
> > vbios too hold proprietary information. Again, not an issue if you are
> > running a headless machine.
>
> Do  you mean deblobing linux/X graphics drivers is a continued area of
> development
> or supporting IGP + graphics card in coreboot (if it needs some speacial
> support
> by corebbot) is a continued area of development ?
> > There is no specific roadmap. This is usually driven by board
> > availability. I think some boards will be ported during GSoC. If you
> > have a preferred board, send an email to the list. Someone might be
> > working on it.
>
> I don't have a prefered board (yet). I was thinking of picking one
> of the few that people has shown some interest in here in the list.
> That might be best for me as a newbie as I wouldn't be alone even
> if it is not currently supported yet. I'm not sure if it would be
> best for the project (having more that one test instance for the
> same board ) or it would be best to have as many different boards
> to test as possible.

the 780 mainboard which coreboot support now is mahogany. I am trying to
porting a few more
mainboard as GSOC project. the mainboard i choose at this moment is
1)Shine,2)Tilapia,3)Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H,4)ASUS M4A78-VM 5)Colorful
C.A780G X5.
i am aslo checking if i can order an Jetway PA78VM5-H which Scott have much
interests. You can
choose one of them or the other 780 mainboard.
> > I think that DDR3 support will be critical for coreboot this year. I
> > am optimistic that we will get some help from AMD this summer.
>
> Ok, I can wait, I guess. I can start by the OS, test flashrom
> with the propietary bios, etc. and handle coreboot proper later.
> > > How to choose socketed boards ?
> > >
> > > How can one know whether a card has socketed or soldered BIOS ROMs
>
> besides
> > > looking at it or some photos ? Should it be in the specs or manual ?
> > > (I don't trust myself with a soldering iron).
> >
> > This will usually be in the manual. Many boards are SPI flash now and
> > you need an external programmer with a test clip to program them. This
> > is an area we need to improve on the wiki.
>
> I had read something (either in coreboot wiki or from some link there)
> but I no longer find it. I thought SPI could be socketed or soldered.

most of the bios with public mainbard are soldered, but you can also use
flashrom
or external programmer which has test clip. take this as an example
http://www.dediprog.com/SPI-flash-in-circuit-programming/ISP-Testclip-SO8
> > These are great goals. It sounds like you have a lot in common with
> > the folks at the FSF. :)
>
> In goals, we have a lot in common, I'm just less active pursuing them.
> > There are a couple AMD and Intel platforms that might meet your needs.
>
> Are there ? I've been looking at the supported mainboards and found
> few that I could buy currently in a shop and are relatively
> powerful. I'll look again.
> > I expect more boards (like the 780/710) to be supported this summer if
> > you are willing to wait. I am also hopeful that we see coreboot on
> > systems available from vendors in the future.
>
> I've already wited quite a lot, and my current laptop is falling
> apart.  So I may buy soon, but I may install coreboot later (I
> understand buying before getting support may be risky). I'd like to
> buy something with coreboot preinstalled, but that may be the next
> system I buy after whatever I get now. In your products page I've seen
> a couple of servers with coreboot I might get, but they're a bit
> expensive for what I was thinking.
>
> Thanks for your help.

Doubts about necessity of propietary parts in the firmware

[xdrudis]

On Wed, Apr 14, 2010 at 10:18:50AM +0800, Qing Pei Wang wrote:
> the 780 mainboard which coreboot support now is mahogany. I am trying to
> porting a few more
> mainboard as GSOC project. the mainboard i choose at this moment is
> 1)Shine,2)Tilapia,3)Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H,4)ASUS M4A78-VM 5)Colorful
> C.A780G X5.
> i am aslo checking if i can order an Jetway PA78VM5-H which Scott have much
> interests. You can
> choose one of them or the other 780 mainboard.

Thank you very much. I found the 
Gigabyte GA-MA78GM-S2H
at 
http://www.gigabyte.com.tw/Products/Motherboard/Products_Spec.aspx?ClassValu...
(max 16 Gb RAM)

ASUS M4A78-VM
at 
http://www.asus.com/product.aspx?P_ID=daNjn5iQIh14MVvN
(max 8Gb RAM)

Jetway PA78VM5-H at
http://www.jetwaycomputer.com/spec/PA78VM5-H.pdf
But its maximum RAM seems to be 4Gb, and I'd like something more

and 
Colorful C.A780G X5
http://en.colorful.cn/Product/Specific.aspx?GUID=445638f9-8ec4-423b-8c00-4f0...
I can't find how much RAM can it hold (the picture shows 4 slots)
It has 2x8 Mb Rom chips, maybe socketed (by the picture, I didn't find any manual)

But I didn't find any mainboard by the name Shine or Tilapia, do you have any reference?
> most of the bios with public mainbard are soldered, but you can also use
> flashrom
> or external programmer which has test clip. take this as an example
> http://www.dediprog.com/SPI-flash-in-circuit-programming/ISP-Testclip-SO8

Ok, thank you very much. 
I'll try to use flashrom and buy the programmer + clip when I brick it.