flash_n_burn rom utils, /dev/bios ... resquest

[Mathieu Deschamps]

Hello,

I was wondering in what measure it would be possible to
read/write a bios via a LPT port. If i am not mistaking, every 
flashing facility solution reads/writes a onboard bios chip.

I know this could sound very strange to you. Also, I know how 
difficult it is to handle request that steps aside of what
the system is meant to do. 
But I don't feel confident with bios hot plugging...
I've read this is a sensible operation and well ...
Mainly i couldn't afford to "break" my unique build machine bios !

I'd rather like to make
a backup copy of my bios in another chip and then to cold
plug this copy to work with Linuxbios.

Has anyone felt this worry . How come could I resolve this ?

thanks in advance

mathieu

[ron minnich]

bios hot plugging has worked for us now for four years.

It's scary but I would not worry about it, or just bet a bios savior.

ron

[Ian Zimmerman]

Mathieu> I'd rather like to make a backup copy of my bios in another
Mathieu> chip and then to cold plug this copy to work with Linuxbios.

Mathieu> Has anyone felt this worry .

Same here.

I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.

[ron minnich]

On 20 Apr 2004, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Same here.
>
> I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
> linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.

but what else can you do? Can you afford a flash burner? The set of people 
who can afford this is smaller than the set of people who can hot plug.

I had not realized however that hot plug is such a big issue, so 
suggestions for alternatives that are affordable would be great

Thanks!

ron

[Mathieu Deschamps]

Le mer 21/04/2004 à 02:20, ron minnich a écrit :
> On 20 Apr 2004, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > Same here.
> >
> > I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
> > linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.
>
> but what else can you do? Can you afford a flash burner? The set of people 
> who can afford this is smaller than the set of people who can hot plug.

1. I can't afford a "true" flash burner
2. Hot plug on PLCC (for example) leaves me (and others as it seems)
worry :
     half a millimeter between chip pins and a working motherboard :
what if i'am a bit stress and lift up badly the chip ? I got the
answer...

It's where the difficulty relies : I find it a pity linuxbios offers so
much and resolve via soft a lots of non Open/Free bios problems, and
though couldn't free itself from this "mechanical" issue... if I can say
so... :)

"Draft" Propositions :

1. why not building a flash_rom util which could send bios code steam
via LTP, COM or USB, PCI  : the aim not to touch the "working" bios(even
though its not needed after boot time) . Plusvalue of this : Cold plug :
Make a backup copy for example

2. trying to disconnect/diswire bios socket from the up mainboard (that
is to say to get 0v on every pin of the socket) . Ideal view (mb
manufacturers !) : get a jumper to handle this

3 ... err .. run dry

mathieu
> I had not realized however that hot plug is such a big issue, so 
> suggestions for alternatives that are affordable would be great
>
> Thanks!
>
> ron
>
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

Mathieu Deschamps  writes:
> Le mer 21/04/2004 à 02:20, ron minnich a écrit :
> > On 20 Apr 2004, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > > Same here.
> > >
> > > I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
> > > linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.
> >
> > but what else can you do? Can you afford a flash burner? The set of people 
> > who can afford this is smaller than the set of people who can hot plug.
> I can't afford a "true" flash burner
> Hot plug on PLCC (for example) leaves me (and others as it seems)
>
> worry :
>      half a millimeter between chip pins and a working motherboard :
> what if i'am a bit stress and lift up badly the chip ? I got the
> answer...

In practice I have not seen this happen.  The only things I have
fried are BIOS chips themselves by pluggin them in backwards.
> It's where the difficulty relies : I find it a pity linuxbios offers so
> much and resolve via soft a lots of non Open/Free bios problems, and
> though couldn't free itself from this "mechanical" issue... if I can say
> so... :)

For users if there is a known good binary release for a board changing
BIOS chips is not an issue.  This is only an issue for developers, and users
willing to live on the edge because they don't know if what they are
about to flash will work.

Once LinuxBIOS is up and running on a board we have two copies and you
can flash just so there is really not an issue.
> "Draft" Propositions :
> why not building a flash_rom util which could send bios code steam
>
> via LTP, COM or USB, PCI  : the aim not to touch the "working" bios(even
> though its not needed after boot time) . Plusvalue of this : Cold plug :
> Make a backup copy for example

If this was done in software it would need to put the code some place.
That takes RAM.  You need the BIOS to enable RAM.  catch-22.
> trying to disconnect/diswire bios socket from the up mainboard (that
>
> is to say to get 0v on every pin of the socket) . Ideal view (mb
> manufacturers !) : get a jumper to handle this

Sounds like a sane alternative to me, if you can solder that well.
> 3 ... err .. run dry

Right. We try to provide suggestions within the range of doability.
It is not that we want to make things hard on developers/testers it
is just that things are hard and tricky taking over a system that
low down.

Eric

[Ronald G. Minnich]

On 21 Apr 2004, Mathieu Deschamps wrote:
>  half a millimeter between chip pins and a working motherboard :
>
> what if i'am a bit stress and lift up badly the chip ? I got the
> answer...

ah! the problem!

go to your friendly Radio Shack (I have seem them in France, is that your 
location?) and get the PLCC puller. It's a great cheap tool and it is 
almost IMPOSSIBLE to hurt anything with it!
> why not building a flash_rom util which could send bios code steam
>
> via LTP, COM or USB, PCI  : the aim not to touch the "working" bios(even
> though its not needed after boot time) . Plusvalue of this : Cold plug :
> Make a backup copy for example

It's a great idea but what are you going to hook that USB port to? a $400 
programmer, that's what. That's the problem.
> trying to disconnect/diswire bios socket from the up mainboard (that
>
> is to say to get 0v on every pin of the socket) . Ideal view (mb
> manufacturers !) : get a jumper to handle this

I don't think you can get them to do it.
> 3 ... err .. run dry

hot plug.

ron

[BIOS] hot plug / cold plug

[Mathieu Deschamps]

Le mer 21/04/2004 à 16:57, Ronald G. Minnich a écrit :
> On 21 Apr 2004, Mathieu Deschamps wrote:
> >  half a millimeter between chip pins and a working motherboard :
> >
> > what if i'am a bit stress and lift up badly the chip ? I got the
> > answer...
>
> ah! the problem!
>
> go to your friendly Radio Shack (I have seem them in France, is that your 
> location?) and get the PLCC puller. It's a great cheap tool and it is 
> almost IMPOSSIBLE to hurt anything with it!

Well, I've just gone to their internet site a few minute ago.
    But you know now it has gone farther than a simple question a 
    harm. It's a question of safety, and of comfort
> > why not building a flash_rom util which could send bios code steam
> >
> > via LTP, COM or USB, PCI  : the aim not to touch the "working" bios(even
> > though its not needed after boot time) . Plusvalue of this : Cold plug :
> > Make a backup copy for example
>
> It's a great idea but what are you going to hook that USB port to? a $400 
> programmer, that's what. That's the problem.

true.
> > trying to disconnect/diswire bios socket from the up mainboard (that
> >
> > is to say to get 0v on every pin of the socket) . Ideal view (mb
> > manufacturers !) : get a jumper to handle this
>
> I don't think you can get them to do it.

I alone surely not ! If the demand exists the offer will
    except if them, don't want it, but why would they ?.
    It not new that the comfort of use and customization is a true
    plusvalue in computing and in electronics (hardware). Maybe it
    could appear to be just "tuning" but not only.
> 3 ... err .. run dry
>
> hot plug.

I can't help thinking that working on same
        bios that went up is a bad idea (in ref of: 	
    never build in the source directory).
    Promise I stop doing my hammer head :)
    I'll stop bother with it :
    I'll go hot pluging because i've now understood 
    there's no other alternative.
> ron
>
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

[BIOS] hot plug / cold plug

[ron minnich]

On 21 Apr 2004, Mathieu Deschamps wrote:
> Well, I've just gone to their internet site a few minute ago.
>    But you know now it has gone farther than a simple question a 
>    harm. It's a question of safety, and of comfort

the tradeoff is money. If you don't have money, you have to go this route. 
I don't see any way out.
> I alone surely not ! If the demand exists the offer will
>    except if them, don't want it, but why would they ?.

You can try. In my experience, with them punching out millions of these 
boards a month, they won't want to spend any money/time on a design change 
that will compromise the board (as this jumper would).
> I'll go hot pluging because i've now understood 
>    there's no other alternative.

yeah, I'm sorry.

ron

[Peter Stuge]

On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 04:37:37PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> Mathieu> I'd rather like to make a backup copy of my bios in another
> Mathieu> chip and then to cold plug this copy to work with Linuxbios.
>
> Mathieu> Has anyone felt this worry .
>
> Same here.
>
> I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
> linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.

While it is obviously true that a number of people in the audience are
worried about hotplugging the BIOS ROM I don't think it has a very
negative impact yet - LinuxBIOS is getting closer and closer to a very
stable release but in order to get there, more hard-core hackers are
needed anyway to contribute support for various system components such
as CPUs, chipsets etc.

Also, any BIOS software probably isn't targeted even at power users -
more so at system integrators and/or retailers, who are in a much
better financial position for getting "pro" BIOS tools such as a
standalone programmer.

On the other hand, there's always the possibility of getting a
BIOS-saviour, or even a cheaper model standalone programmer at $200.
(They're usually not really good until up at $400-$500 though.)

//Peter

[Li-Ta Lo]

On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 18:25, Peter Stuge wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2004 at 04:37:37PM -0700, Ian Zimmerman wrote:
> > Mathieu> I'd rather like to make a backup copy of my bios in another
> > Mathieu> chip and then to cold plug this copy to work with Linuxbios.
> >
> > Mathieu> Has anyone felt this worry .
> >
> > Same here.
> >
> > I feel that the reliance on hotplugging flash chips has limited
> > linuxbios audience to hard-core metal hackers.
>
> While it is obviously true that a number of people in the audience are
> worried about hotplugging the BIOS ROM I don't think it has a very
> negative impact yet - LinuxBIOS is getting closer and closer to a very
> stable release but in order to get there, more hard-core hackers are
> needed anyway to contribute support for various system components such
> as CPUs, chipsets etc.
>
> Also, any BIOS software probably isn't targeted even at power users -
> more so at system integrators and/or retailers, who are in a much
> better financial position for getting "pro" BIOS tools such as a
> standalone programmer.
>
> On the other hand, there's always the possibility of getting a
> BIOS-saviour, or even a cheaper model standalone programmer at $200.
> (They're usually not really good until up at $400-$500 though.)

One of the problem I found with those standalone flash programmer
is the speed. It take a long time to erase/program a flash chip
with these programmers. And those programmers only work under
Windows. This is very unproductive when one is in a modify/compile/test
cycle.

Ollie
> //Peter
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