Hi,
Don't know if this is of any interest but I think the first part ("BIOS Ridiculousness...") relates somewhat of what you are trying to accomplish here. There really should be more interest from motherboard manufacturers in coreboot than there are...
http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3471
Best regards
Peter Karlsson
Hi Peter,
thanks for the heads-up.
Ron, do you want to write to Anandtech to tell them about coreboot?
Regards, Carl-Daniel
On 07.12.2008 20:23, pk wrote:
Hi,
Don't know if this is of any interest but I think the first part ("BIOS Ridiculousness...") relates somewhat of what you are trying to accomplish here. There really should be more interest from motherboard manufacturers in coreboot than there are...
http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3471
Best regards
Peter Karlsson
I've spoken with some people at Anandtech, at least Derek Wilson was a very helpful person. If you need any help contacting them, please do say so. Best regards, Tiago Marques
On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger < c-d.hailfinger.devel.2006@gmx.net> wrote:
Hi Peter,
thanks for the heads-up.
Ron, do you want to write to Anandtech to tell them about coreboot?
Regards, Carl-Daniel
On 07.12.2008 20:23, pk wrote:
Hi,
Don't know if this is of any interest but I think the first part ("BIOS Ridiculousness...") relates somewhat of what you are trying to accomplish here. There really should be more interest from motherboard manufacturers in coreboot than there are...
http://anandtech.com/mb/showdoc.aspx?i=3471
Best regards
Peter Karlsson
-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
Why don't we try to talk about anandtech about the ways coreboot would help solve the problems they are wasting time on.
ron
On Mon, Dec 8, 2008 at 6:46 PM, ron minnich rminnich@gmail.com wrote:
Why don't we try to talk about anandtech about the ways coreboot would help solve the problems they are wasting time on.
I've got to ask this: why? These guys are reviewers, the only thing they could do would be inform motherboard manufacturers about coreboot, and I'm fairly sure most manufacturers already know about the project. They could do a write-up on it I suppose, but aside from creating some public interest, the net result would probably be minimal. And without support for Vista or even good support for XP, coreboot isn't a viable option IMO for most users. Just my 2 cents.
-Corey
Corey Osgood wrote:
Why don't we try to talk about anandtech about the ways coreboot would help solve the problems they are wasting time on.
I've got to ask this: why? These guys are reviewers, the only thing they could do would be inform motherboard manufacturers about coreboot, and I'm fairly sure most manufacturers already know about the project.
Clearly (from the article) board vendors really listen to these guys, the example mentioned even shows how that one vendor _depends_ on a favorable review, because their market listens carefully to the reviewers' advice. The reviewers even have direct contact with BIOS developers, and they work through hundreds of issues. (Per the article.)
Maybe vendors know about coreboot, but if this very important market voice talks coreboot, merely mentioning it, or even requesting it as an alternative, there is suddenly quite concrete motivation for vendors to look closer at supporting and supplying coreboot.
And without support for Vista or even good support for XP, coreboot isn't a viable option IMO for most users.
Well, coreboot itself doesn't really care, and this is an important point to make when talking to anyone who is new to the project. All the magic is in the payload.
The major benefit of the payload scheme in this case is that "Windows support" is mostly decoupled from the hardware initialization in coreboot. We just have to make sure coreboot has enough knowledge to export the data structures that Windows needs.
SeaBIOS is already in good shape and getting better. Now is the time for vendors to start looking into it, and I am certain that those showing early interest will have a big advantage over their competition.
And help is available to get them started quickly.
//Peter
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se wrote:
And without support for Vista or even good support for XP, coreboot isn't a viable option IMO for most users.
Well, coreboot itself doesn't really care, and this is an important point to make when talking to anyone who is new to the project. All the magic is in the payload.
and, when peter was visiting a few months ago, I watched XP install and boot.
It works for XP to some extent.
Honestly, it never hurts to inform people. We may think they know; usually they don't.
ron
Probably, almost surely, most of the manufacturers never heard of Coreboot or, if they did, don't know the current state of the project and if they can use it or not. I think that *pushing Coreboot as a plus for the enthusiast* would be something to look into. Hardware enthusiasts are tweakers and, as such, like to tweak, what better than offer them open-source code? It may not appeal to all but it may for some. If manufacturers like the idea, than they'll probably look into it.
I can try to talk to them, if someone has the time to talk to them afterwards.
Best regards, Tiago Marques
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 6:38 PM, ron minnich rminnich@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Dec 9, 2008 at 5:11 AM, Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se wrote:
And without support for Vista or even good support for XP, coreboot isn't a viable option IMO for most users.
Well, coreboot itself doesn't really care, and this is an important point to make when talking to anyone who is new to the project. All the magic is in the payload.
and, when peter was visiting a few months ago, I watched XP install and boot.
It works for XP to some extent.
Honestly, it never hurts to inform people. We may think they know; usually they don't.
ron
-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
On 10.12.2008 16:05, Tiago Marques wrote:
Probably, almost surely, most of the manufacturers never heard of Coreboot or, if they did, don't know the current state of the project and if they can use it or not.
Yes, you do have a point.
I think that *pushing Coreboot as a plus for the enthusiast* would be something to look into. Hardware enthusiasts are tweakers and, as such, like to tweak, what better than offer them open-source code? It may not appeal to all but it may for some. If manufacturers like the idea, than they'll probably look into it.
There is one reason to avoid coreboot support: Value-added BIOS. Let me explain. Some manufacturers sell mostly identical boards, one model with lots of BIOS tweaking options, another model with almost not BIOS tweaking options. I have seen such boards where you pay up to $100 more for better tweaking options and faster boot. If anybody can do this, they lose this source of income. OTOH, if their competitors start shipping coreboot with lots of cool features and fast boot, they have no chance but to follow up.
I can try to talk to them, if someone has the time to talk to them afterwards.
I can follow up, but only after christmas.
Our biggest problem right now is that we don't have support for high-end chipsets for AMD boards. We do have support for 690G/SB600, but boards with that chipset are increasingly hard to get. With VIA, it will be a bit better soon, but their market share is rather small. The good thing is that AMD are working on newer chipsets. Same for VIA. I expect that we'll be better off if we talk about this in January.
And it would really be cool if we could talk to Anandtech and tell them "burn this ready-made ROM image and tell us what you think".
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
And it would really be cool if we could talk to Anandtech and tell them "burn this ready-made ROM image and tell us what you think".
The way things have been going so far it will take us many years to to make a product available which can wow them.
Then it will take us another few years to make a release of it.
But if anyone out there has a commercial interest in such a project, please do let me know. :) I think it will be easy enough to integrate the work upstream once it is completed.
//Peter
Tiago Marques wrote:
Probably, almost surely, most of the manufacturers never heard of Coreboot or, if they did, don't know the current state of the project and if they can use it or not.
I think that *pushing Coreboot as a plus for the enthusiast* would be something to look into. Hardware enthusiasts are tweakers and, as such, like to tweak, what better than offer them open-source code? It may not appeal to all but it may for some. If manufacturers like the idea, than they'll probably look into it.
Coreboot is in a difficult position - because in order to turn it into a plus for the enthusiast, we need the vendors. Unlike 99% of open source projects, the success of coreboot is directly dependent on the individual motherboard vendors. If I have a random x86 based motherboard, then there is a better the likely chance that Linux will run on it, albeit with legacy drivers. But if I have a random x86 based motherboard, then there is no chance that it will work with coreboot, unless the coreboot code specifically supports the *exact* same model. Linux and other open source projects started life as an alternative - most of the successful ones are alternatives that could be developed and dropped in by the regular Joe. Coreboot cannot be dropped in by the regular Joe - we need vendor support - without it, this project is relegated to qemu.
Marketing ourselves to enthusiasts only works if we support the same sort of hardware the enthusiasts use - and for the most part, we don't. If you want to hack on a VIA or a Geode, then for sure - come see us, but not many Geode users read Anandtech.
This is only my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think that the only path to success is through the vendors first, and the end users second.
Jordan
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Jordan Crouse jordan@cosmicpenguin.net wrote:
This is only my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think that the only path to success is through the vendors first, and the end users second.
I could not agree more.
ron
ron minnich wrote:
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Jordan Crouse jordan@cosmicpenguin.net wrote:
This is only my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think that the only path to success is through the vendors first, and the end users second.
I could not agree more.
+1.
Although, as mentioned, Anandtech seems to have some influence with the vendors. They also seem to be open to alternative technologies; for instance, they have performed some benchmarks using gnu/linux, they have even tried an alternative bios (albeit on modified xbox machines): http://www.anandtech.com/linux/showdoc.aspx?i=2271
Just a thought: What would they think of the demos you presented at the google tech talk? Would it hurt to talk to them about the potentials, explaining the current situation?
Best regards
Peter K
On 11.12.2008 22:02, pk wrote:
ron minnich wrote:
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Jordan Crouse jordan@cosmicpenguin.net wrote:
This is only my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think that the only path to success is through the vendors first, and the end users second.
I could not agree more.
+1.
Although, as mentioned, Anandtech seems to have some influence with the vendors. They also seem to be open to alternative technologies; for instance, they have performed some benchmarks using gnu/linux, they have even tried an alternative bios (albeit on modified xbox machines): http://www.anandtech.com/linux/showdoc.aspx?i=2271
Just a thought: What would they think of the demos you presented at the google tech talk? Would it hurt to talk to them about the potentials, explaining the current situation?
I think a demo with a readily available board would be nice. Especially if the demo is accompanied with ready-to-burn images. I know that we had better benchmark results than Vendor BIOS for some chipsets/processors, but I am not aware of any recent benchmarking.
The reason I'm kind of insisting on ready-to-burn images is that I want Anandtech to be able to verify this on their own boards in their own lab and to make it clear that coreboot is not just vaporware.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it. One thing that would be important though, is having CPU multiplier, voltages and other similar types of controls working, similarly to vendor's BIOSes. In either way, I have Kristopher Kubicki's contact, if not the guys at Anandtech, maybe he can publish something in Dailytech. I also have a PR contact at Biostar, I'll see if he has any interest in having the engineers look at Coreboot, when I have some time - still, it would be better to have a 690g port working before talking to them. They have plenty of 690G boards at Biostar, to try it in.
Best regards, Tiago Marques
On Thu, Dec 11, 2008 at 9:10 PM, Carl-Daniel Hailfinger < c-d.hailfinger.devel.2006@gmx.net> wrote:
On 11.12.2008 22:02, pk wrote:
ron minnich wrote:
On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 8:33 AM, Jordan Crouse <
jordan@cosmicpenguin.net> wrote:
This is only my opinion, so take it as you will, but I think that the
only
path to success is through the vendors first, and the end users second.
I could not agree more.
+1.
Although, as mentioned, Anandtech seems to have some influence with the vendors. They also seem to be open to alternative technologies; for instance, they have performed some benchmarks using gnu/linux, they have even tried an alternative bios (albeit on modified xbox machines): http://www.anandtech.com/linux/showdoc.aspx?i=2271
Just a thought: What would they think of the demos you presented at the google tech talk? Would it hurt to talk to them about the potentials, explaining the current situation?
I think a demo with a readily available board would be nice. Especially if the demo is accompanied with ready-to-burn images. I know that we had better benchmark results than Vendor BIOS for some chipsets/processors, but I am not aware of any recent benchmarking.
The reason I'm kind of insisting on ready-to-burn images is that I want Anandtech to be able to verify this on their own boards in their own lab and to make it clear that coreboot is not just vaporware.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
//Peter
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 01:57:26AM +0100, Peter Stuge wrote:
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
Except for embedded, no? Jordan mentioned something along those lines.
Wasn't there an 'embedded' opteron coming out?
Thanks, Ward.
Ward Vandewege wrote:
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 01:57:26AM +0100, Peter Stuge wrote:
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
Except for embedded, no? Jordan mentioned something along those lines.
As of early November, the 690/600 chipset was the flagship chipset of the AMD Embedded Division. However, its unlikely that many of those products will end up being very accessible to our merry band of hackers, at least not until eBay kicks in - most of the products I knew about were real "embedded" (i.e - not just a desktop in disguise).
Jordan
On 15.12.2008 01:57, Peter Stuge wrote:
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I hope someone can help me fix the PCI init hang I'm seeing on my 690G board.
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
It's starting to get adopted in the embedded world, but desktop boards are getting scarce.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
We don't have 690G based board. I am sorry that I cant test you patch. Doesn't it work on your board?
Zheng
-----Original Message----- From: coreboot-bounces@coreboot.org [mailto:coreboot-bounces@coreboot.org] On Behalf Of Carl-Daniel Hailfinger Sent: Monday, December 15, 2008 9:39 AM To: coreboot@coreboot.org Subject: Re: [coreboot] Interesting (part of) article.
On 15.12.2008 01:57, Peter Stuge wrote:
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I hope someone can help me fix the PCI init hang I'm seeing on my 690G board.
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
It's starting to get adopted in the embedded world, but desktop boards are getting scarce.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Hi Zheng,
On 15.12.2008 02:51, Bao, Zheng wrote:
We don't have 690G based board.
This is about my Asus M2A-VM board.
I am sorry that I cant test you patch. Doesn't it work on your board?
Sorry, it hangs while enabling resources. The last lines of my log are:
[...] Done setting resources. Done allocating resources. Enabling resources... PCI: 00:18.0 cmd <- 00 PCI: 00:00.0 subsystem <- 1022/3050 PCI: 00:00.0 cmd <- 06 PCI: 00:01.0 bridge ctrl <- 000b PCI: 00:01.0 cmd <- 07
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Right.... but, and the AMD guys correct me if I'm wrong, the 780G and 790GX aren't that much different from the 690G, apart from the integrated graphics core. They both support HT3.0 and you have plenty of 780G chipsets married with the SB700 - SB700 would be something to work on. One other thing, a "new" chipset 740G has shown up recently. From what I know, it's nothing more than a 690G and a SB700 instead of an SB600. Maybe you could focus on that. I recently bought an ECS 740G board new for 43eur, so it's very cheap.
If Coreboot would get a boost, and an article from Anandtech, what we really would need is to run at least a board with SB750 with ACC working. It's a feature that allows you to achieve higher overclocks on Barcelona cores, and one that is being given much talk in new boards.
Best regards, Tiago Marques
On Mon, Dec 15, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se wrote:
Tiago Marques wrote:
If you can make Coreboot work well on an AMD 690G, I can talk to them about it.
By the time we do, the chipset may no longer be on the market. :\
I doubt 690 will boost coreboot, it's just a little too old..
//Peter
-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
-
Bao, Zheng -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
Corey Osgood -
Jordan Crouse -
Peter Stuge -
pk -
ron minnich -
Tiago Marques -
Ward Vandewege