Dear coreboot community members,
Recently there was some unpleasant activity on Gerrit which violated our community’s guidelines regarding respectful conduct. In this case the coreboot leadership team determined that the behavior in question fit a long pattern about which the individual had been previously warned. As a result we have decided to remove Nico from our community for a period of 1 year. We hope this will be a sufficient cooling off period and that we will not need to take more drastic steps in the future. As we've said in the past, we trust that developers in our community are acting in good faith and can generally resolve issues on their own. In cases where two sides cannot reach an agreement, for example in a code review, we expect all engagement to be respectful and to help drive toward a solution. For technical matters this often means starting a mailing list discussion, bringing an issue up during the coreboot leadership meeting, starting a task force to tackle a large problem, or other means of gathering input and collaborating. Personal matters should be brought to the leadership team directly. We'll listen to any complaints or frustrations, but cannot tolerate personal attacks made on Gerrit, the mailing list, or other forums. It is always required that we treat others in a professional manner and communicate with respect, regardless of how strongly we may feel about a particular issue. If anybody feels that a discussion has become too heated, or that somebody is not being treated respectfully, or are simply unsure of how to proceed in a difficult situation, please reach out to the coreboot leadership and we will chart a path forward together.
Hi
I am not happy with this decision. We are a community with a lot of passionate individuals that differ in their communication style. Differences in communication styles cause friction, there is no way around it. Commenting beyond the mere technical on how we treat each other in a community is appropriate and not a violation of respectful conduct. To the contrary, sometimes a more heated discussion is to be preferred to be being "nice" all the time.
I remember on one of my first patches in 2016, that Nico commented that the code looked so bad he wanted to cry. It's not "nice" but it was really bad code and I learned a lot since then, thanks to the honest and truthful communication of the community. More direct communication is preferred by lot of people, including myself.
I believe Nico is a good actor in our community and a 1 year ban does more harm than good. I personally thoroughly enjoy having him as a reviewer.
I ask the leadership to revisit this decision. Coreboot is a hard project to get into and driving the most competent people away is not a smart move.
Arthur
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 9:40 AM David Hendricks via coreboot < coreboot@coreboot.org> wrote:
Dear coreboot community members,
Recently there was some unpleasant activity on Gerrit which violated our community’s guidelines regarding respectful conduct. In this case the coreboot leadership team determined that the behavior in question fit a long pattern about which the individual had been previously warned. As a result we have decided to remove Nico from our community for a period of 1 year. We hope this will be a sufficient cooling off period and that we will not need to take more drastic steps in the future.
As we've said in the past, we trust that developers in our community are acting in good faith and can generally resolve issues on their own. In cases where two sides cannot reach an agreement, for example in a code review, we expect all engagement to be respectful and to help drive toward a solution. For technical matters this often means starting a mailing list discussion, bringing an issue up during the coreboot leadership meeting, starting a task force to tackle a large problem, or other means of gathering input and collaborating.
Personal matters should be brought to the leadership team directly. We'll listen to any complaints or frustrations, but cannot tolerate personal attacks made on Gerrit, the mailing list, or other forums. It is always required that we treat others in a professional manner and communicate with respect, regardless of how strongly we may feel about a particular issue.
If anybody feels that a discussion has become too heated, or that somebody is not being treated respectfully, or are simply unsure of how to proceed in a difficult situation, please reach out to the coreboot leadership and we will chart a path forward together. _______________________________________________ coreboot mailing list -- coreboot@coreboot.org To unsubscribe send an email to coreboot-leave@coreboot.org
Hi
I have to agree with Arthur. A 1 year ban seems excessive. Nico is a big contributor to coreboot and although he is sometimes more active aggressive instead of passive aggressive like most others, I don't see a reason for such an extreme decision. Discussion get heated sometimes.
I also enjoy him as a reviewer, because he just tells me what is wrong. Directly. Maybe not always in the nicest possible way, but I personally don't care, because I know he means well. And lets be fair: Most of us are throwing passive aggressive stuff in front of others sometimes. People just shouldn't take comments on their code or their arguments personally. Sometimes it feels like people take it as a stake in their heart when you comment on their code being not perfect or their arguments not being correct... We all suck. I don't see a reason to pretend otherwise. Discussions get heated. People should just accept that and keep their personal feelings out of it as much as possible. Having said that I realize that we all have to try to be nice to each other, but we also have to accept that this just isn't always the case. And as long as you don't throw that at new people/contributors I don't see the harm. We are a community after all. For better or worse. We need to compromise.
greetings, Max
Am Mi., 2. Okt. 2024 um 11:56 Uhr schrieb Arthur Heymans < arthur@aheymans.xyz>:
Hi
I am not happy with this decision. We are a community with a lot of passionate individuals that differ in their communication style. Differences in communication styles cause friction, there is no way around it. Commenting beyond the mere technical on how we treat each other in a community is appropriate and not a violation of respectful conduct. To the contrary, sometimes a more heated discussion is to be preferred to be being "nice" all the time.
I remember on one of my first patches in 2016, that Nico commented that the code looked so bad he wanted to cry. It's not "nice" but it was really bad code and I learned a lot since then, thanks to the honest and truthful communication of the community. More direct communication is preferred by lot of people, including myself.
I believe Nico is a good actor in our community and a 1 year ban does more harm than good. I personally thoroughly enjoy having him as a reviewer.
I ask the leadership to revisit this decision. Coreboot is a hard project to get into and driving the most competent people away is not a smart move.
Arthur
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 9:40 AM David Hendricks via coreboot < coreboot@coreboot.org> wrote:
Dear coreboot community members,
Recently there was some unpleasant activity on Gerrit which violated our community’s guidelines regarding respectful conduct. In this case the coreboot leadership team determined that the behavior in question fit a long pattern about which the individual had been previously warned. As a result we have decided to remove Nico from our community for a period of 1 year. We hope this will be a sufficient cooling off period and that we will not need to take more drastic steps in the future.
As we've said in the past, we trust that developers in our community are acting in good faith and can generally resolve issues on their own. In cases where two sides cannot reach an agreement, for example in a code review, we expect all engagement to be respectful and to help drive toward a solution. For technical matters this often means starting a mailing list discussion, bringing an issue up during the coreboot leadership meeting, starting a task force to tackle a large problem, or other means of gathering input and collaborating.
Personal matters should be brought to the leadership team directly. We'll listen to any complaints or frustrations, but cannot tolerate personal attacks made on Gerrit, the mailing list, or other forums. It is always required that we treat others in a professional manner and communicate with respect, regardless of how strongly we may feel about a particular issue.
If anybody feels that a discussion has become too heated, or that somebody is not being treated respectfully, or are simply unsure of how to proceed in a difficult situation, please reach out to the coreboot leadership and we will chart a path forward together. _______________________________________________ coreboot mailing list -- coreboot@coreboot.org To unsubscribe send an email to coreboot-leave@coreboot.org
coreboot mailing list -- coreboot@coreboot.org To unsubscribe send an email to coreboot-leave@coreboot.org
Hi
I second that. First Nico was banned from flashrom, now from coreboot. I saw no real basis for the previous decision and see none for this one. I even thought of him being overly nice in our recent interactions.
In general, he seems to care much more about the projects than many others and actually put in the effort. This can result in having strong opinions and disagreements, but that's not a bad thing.
Regards, Sergii
On Wed, Oct 02, 2024 at 11:55:55AM +0200, Arthur Heymans wrote:
Hi
I am not happy with this decision. We are a community with a lot of passionate individuals that differ in their communication style. Differences in communication styles cause friction, there is no way around it. Commenting beyond the mere technical on how we treat each other in a community is appropriate and not a violation of respectful conduct. To the contrary, sometimes a more heated discussion is to be preferred to be being "nice" all the time.
I remember on one of my first patches in 2016, that Nico commented that the code looked so bad he wanted to cry. It's not "nice" but it was really bad code and I learned a lot since then, thanks to the honest and truthful communication of the community. More direct communication is preferred by lot of people, including myself.
I believe Nico is a good actor in our community and a 1 year ban does more harm than good. I personally thoroughly enjoy having him as a reviewer.
I ask the leadership to revisit this decision. Coreboot is a hard project to get into and driving the most competent people away is not a smart move.
Arthur
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 9:40 AM David Hendricks via coreboot < coreboot@coreboot.org> wrote:
Dear coreboot community members,
Recently there was some unpleasant activity on Gerrit which violated our community’s guidelines regarding respectful conduct. In this case the coreboot leadership team determined that the behavior in question fit a long pattern about which the individual had been previously warned. As a result we have decided to remove Nico from our community for a period of 1 year. We hope this will be a sufficient cooling off period and that we will not need to take more drastic steps in the future.
As we've said in the past, we trust that developers in our community are acting in good faith and can generally resolve issues on their own. In cases where two sides cannot reach an agreement, for example in a code review, we expect all engagement to be respectful and to help drive toward a solution. For technical matters this often means starting a mailing list discussion, bringing an issue up during the coreboot leadership meeting, starting a task force to tackle a large problem, or other means of gathering input and collaborating.
Personal matters should be brought to the leadership team directly. We'll listen to any complaints or frustrations, but cannot tolerate personal attacks made on Gerrit, the mailing list, or other forums. It is always required that we treat others in a professional manner and communicate with respect, regardless of how strongly we may feel about a particular issue.
If anybody feels that a discussion has become too heated, or that somebody is not being treated respectfully, or are simply unsure of how to proceed in a difficult situation, please reach out to the coreboot leadership and we will chart a path forward together. _______________________________________________ coreboot mailing list -- coreboot@coreboot.org To unsubscribe send an email to coreboot-leave@coreboot.org
Hello list,
On Wed, Oct 2, 2024 at 7:40 AM David Hendricks via coreboot < coreboot@coreboot.org> wrote:
Dear coreboot community members,
Recently there was some unpleasant activity on Gerrit which violated our community’s guidelines regarding respectful conduct. In this case the coreboot leadership team determined that the behavior in question fit a long pattern about which the individual had been previously warned. As a result we have decided to remove Nico from our community for a period of 1 year. We hope this will be a sufficient cooling off period and that we will not need to take more drastic steps in the future.
David, I see you are one of the three members of the leadership team [1]. Could you please provide the following, privately if necessary?
- the minutes for the meeting in which the decision was made (which might contain references to the documents below; if the meeting minutes are not available, I would like to know why) - links to the aforementioned "unpleasant activity on Gerrit" - the guidelines from [2] or [3] (I could not find a document called "community guidelines") that were violated
Not knowing what happened nor why makes me afraid to contribute, lest the same fate befall me as well. Especially considering that Nico has been a role model for me as I was learning the ropes of firmware development, so most of the things about coreboot as well as authoring and reviewing changes I have learned from him.
As we've said in the past, we trust that developers in our community are acting in good faith and can generally resolve issues on their own. In cases where two sides cannot reach an agreement, for example in a code review, we expect all engagement to be respectful and to help drive toward a solution. For technical matters this often means starting a mailing list discussion, bringing an issue up during the coreboot leadership meeting, starting a task force to tackle a large problem, or other means of gathering input and collaborating.
Personal matters should be brought to the leadership team directly. We'll listen to any complaints or frustrations, but cannot tolerate personal attacks made on Gerrit, the mailing list, or other forums. It is always required that we treat others in a professional manner and communicate with respect, regardless of how strongly we may feel about a particular issue.
A tiny remark about professional manner: when interacting with others I know, I like sprinkling a bit of humour in my messages, but without being disrespectful towards anyone (no dark humour and no making fun of others) or compromising my knowledge/abilities (do not overdo it and consider that not everyone might get it). I believe this does not make me unprofessional, but I am happy to listen in case anyone disagrees.
Other than that, I agree with the above, but I also believe it is important to be aware that misunderstandings can and will happen, especially considering that people from all over the world can contribute, each with their own culture and tradition. Not everyone is a native English speaker (even if it does not seem like it, I am not). Not everyone is capable of noticing when a discussion is getting too heated/tense, let alone do something to end it before it is too late (I am trying to get better at this). Not everyone communicates the same way, e.g. autistic people tend to communicate in direct and literal ways that can be misinterpreted by non-autistic people [4] (I am autistic, I have had this happen before), whereas other autistic people have no issues with this communication style.
I believe that the information in [4] (especially the list of 12 rules) is valuable and I would appreciate having them integrated into our own guidelines, although I agree they should be guidelines rather than strictly-enforced rules: misunderstandings are *still* inevitable and will happen. In case of a misunderstanding, I think the most sensible way to proceed is for someone (preferably one of the participants) to notice that "something feels wrong" and remain calm, disengaging from the discussion if needed (e.g. wait before replying to an email or review comment). If possible, try to bring it up without pointing fingers, e.g. "I feel this discussion is heating up: is there anything I can do to help, or am I reading into things?" or (quoting a response) "This sounded quite rude to me, was it intentional?". This requires being able to recognise that tension is building up and restraining one's impulses; I understand this is not trivial to accomplish, especially if one is susceptible to getting angry (e.g. me).
If anybody feels that a discussion has become too heated, or that somebody is not being treated respectfully, or are simply unsure of how to proceed in a difficult situation, please reach out to the coreboot leadership and we will chart a path forward together. _______________________________________________ coreboot mailing list -- coreboot@coreboot.org To unsubscribe send an email to coreboot-leave@coreboot.org
Best regards, Angel
[1]: https://www.coreboot.org/leadership.html [2]: https://doc.coreboot.org/community/code_of_conduct.html [3]: https://doc.coreboot.org/contributing/gerrit_guidelines.html [4]: https://warwick.ac.uk/services/socialinclusion/projects/letstalkaboutdisabil...
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Angel Pons -
Arthur Heymans -
David Hendricks -
Maximilian Brune -
Sergii Dmytruk