Problem with Librem is not just that it isn't fully free yet and doesn't seem to become so in future, but also that it is an Intel-based product.
Intel is totally NOT friendly to coreboot project (and open source community in general) - that could be seen by their malevolent actions, such as introduction of Boot Guard "feature". Intel tries to justify them by "it's for your safety" preaching; but, "anytime someone puts a lock on something you own, against your wishes, and doesn't give you the key, they're not doing it for your benefit" (Doctorow's Law)
By purchasing a product of a company, you are fully supporting their policy. And that is why it is not good to support Intel by getting Intel-based products and developing for Intel, despite ~75% of x86/x86_64 CPU market is owned by them.
You are right, there are some difficulties about AMD products, such as the need to reverse engineer SMU and Atombios firmwares for their APUs. But at least they're not putting deliberate hardware obstacles in their new products, and if they don't become "evil" like Intel (hope so) AMD could be a future of coreboot x86/x86_64 branch.
P.S. In addition to Lenovo G505s, I was very happy to find out that - thanks to latest contributors - coreboot is now supporting the ASROCK IMB-A180 and Biostar AM1ML which are based on AMD AM1 platform (architecture family 16h, Puma/Jaguar SoCs are compatible) Maybe some of these products have a potential to be RYF'ed, will see...
Best regards, Vladimir Shipovalov
On 11 April 2015 at 19:33, Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se wrote:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
figured out how to fuse the PCH to disable ME
Please read ISBN 9781430265719.
The ME firmware controls the host CPU reset.
//Peter
On 10 April 2015 at 08:45, Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com wrote:
On Monday, April 06, 2015 01:45:32 PM Vladimir wrote:
Dear coreboot developers,
Francis Rowe (main Libreboot developer) has hinted an idea about adding Lenovo G505S to Coreboot LTS Candidates list of laptops, which is
hosted at
MrNuke's User talk coreboot wiki page. I believe it is an excellent
idea,
because:
You are free to add it, but keep in mind that anything with an AMD APU will fail the RYF-certifiable criteria due to SMU and atombios.
If we're going to lower the bar, we should also consider Librem 15. At least that one has (should have) a much more durable construction and much better screen. If those guys aren't as full of it as they sound, and have figured out how to fuse the PCH to disable ME, then RYF'ing a Librem should be less work than anything APU.
Best regards,
Alex
On 8 April 2015 at 12:49, Vladimir quickcracktime@gmail.com wrote:
What if A8 model is supported as well, just not tested yet? These APUs are very similar to each other, after all ;) Maybe a knowledgeable coreboot developers, especially those who have ported coreboot to G505S, could tell what parts of code are A10-specific - and, if there is indeed such a code, how to change the parameters of that code to make them suitable for A8 ?
In case they don't reply: if you have SPI clip as well as BIOS programmer that supports many chips including MX25L1606E , could try a following scenario:
- get A8 G505S locally & try to install coreboot
- if it works, announce it to a mailing list that there's a support and
keep a laptop to yourself ; but if it doesn't work - even after playing with parameters - and a laptop is bricked, you could restore a manufacturer's BIOS using SPI clip & BIOS programmer, and then return a laptop to seller...
About A10 model - it does not seem to be US-only: there are a lot of offers in Russia, as well as at "developing countries" such as Thailand/India (maybe that stock was inherited from EU countries) But, because of huge quantity of different laptop models/modifications, and dependence of their local availability on local retailers' preference, there are countries which got either a small stock of G505S or none at all! :P And that returns us to "reasonable availability" debate... In my perception:
"Reasonable availability" for a laptop model, is when a person is able to get a new laptop (not used/refurbished) - for a price that does not exceed the manufacturer's list price by more than X % of it. (e.g. 25%). That additional condition regarding the list price is necessary, because if there would be some greedy retailers left - who didn't sold out their large stock just because of outrageous unreasonable prices - I wouldn't call this as "reasonably available" ;)
As you see, "reasonable availability" is a quite subjective term, because if your country doesn't have a stock of this laptop: *) your price would be not just price of unit but also a shipping price from other country, + possible import taxes *) there are various risks: if, because of your location, you cannot buy a laptop in store after checking its quality, a laptop could have manufacturing defects that are not enough to request a replacement/partial refund, e.g. laws based on ISO 13406-2 standard could allow a seller to refuse a replacement of laptop if there are a few annoying dead pixels. These risks have a different "weight" in the eyes of different people, e.g. many people wouldn't consider it as "reasonably available" even if it's available from neighbor country with a low shipping price, because they do not want to risk. And that makes this term even more subjective and hard to measure by automatic metrics...
P.S. Indeed, some laptops that are listed in coreboot "LTS Candidates" list ( http://www.coreboot.org/User_talk:MrNuke/LTS_Candidates ) have A10-5750M as well and seem to be more "reasonably available" than G505S, at least for your country. But, despite having a somewhat similar hardware, nobody ported a coreboot to them yet :P
Best regards, Vladimir Shipovalov
On 7 April 2015 at 16:17, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
My point is not to limit your LTS list to US laptops. US has *extraordinary* availability for a lot of gear.
There's also the matter of procurement and warranty. A company won't bother importing some laptop from outside the EU just because a developer wants it -- they will look locally and as a last resort within the EU.
Except some brands (Apple comes to mind) warranty becomes a hassle if the laptop breaks. Transport costs, long wait time and language issues complicate matters.
Amazon Germany seems to have 2 laptops in stock with A10. Amazon Spain/France/Italy/Netherlands has none. Only Amazon UK seems to have it without giving a stock warning (but it's sold by a 3d party).
Anyhow, I don't want to sidetrack this, but the first criteria for the LTS laptop is "reasonable availability"...
Perhaps you should have some metric for availability (this could even be automated somewhat). Pick a list of top electronics sites/stores from a list of countries and define a formula based on model availability.
Alternatively, it would be great to support the A8 too!
To me the the G505S would clearly be a better machine to recommend compared to an ancient Thinkpad X2xx!
--emi
On Tue, Apr 7, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Vladimir quickcracktime@gmail.com wrote:
If I am not mistaken, your country is Romania... Unfortunately - if I didn't skip something - it looks like Romania went out of A10 stock just a couple of weeks ago! However, I found many offers from Hungary, which is very close! Some offers are listed on "price list"-type websites (e.g. http://www.arukereso.hu/CategorySearch.php?st=g505s+a10 ) while others are not listed anywhere (e.g. http://www.notebookspecialista.hu/lenovo_ideapad_g505s_59_422983_notebook-11... ) Nice thing is that these offers usually have A10 + R5 230M, slightly faster dual graphics. But the majority of G505S models selling in Europe have Win8 pre-installed, so I'm afraid it would be hard to avoid paying extra for this bloatware, in your case :P
As for other European countries, it is difficult for me to look through the entire EU because there are many countries with many languages. I only know English as foreign language, and thats why the majority of foreign offers I'm able to find, are in UK/US...
On 6 April 2015 at 23:12, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@gmail.com wrote:
Well, the G505S with A10-5750M is explicitly listed as no longer being sold. So it's the A8 or nothing.
Could you provide links within the EU with (online) shops still selling the A10 variant and having some actual stock?
--emi
On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:45 PM, Vladimir quickcracktime@gmail.com wrote:
> Yes, in addition to A10-5750M based G505S there are also A8 and A6 > ones. But there are some possible problems regarding them: > 1) their price is just slightly lower than with A10 - as result, > price/performance ratio seems to be worse for these models > 2) I'm not sure if it is possible could upgrade their APU from A6/A8 > to A10-5750M after purchase > 3) most importantly: some parameters inside a coreboot source code > for G505S could be A10-specific ; > I am not sure if a current "A10-inclined build" would run on A8/A6 > out of the box, without additional tweaking > > A question from my last letter - about compatibility of G505S > coreboot build with various graphics solutions found in different > modifications, is not addressed yet... to remind, there are three groups of > modifications: > *) only 8650G (no dual graphics) > *) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) > *) 8650G + AMD R5 M230 (dual graphics, slightly faster) > > P.S. Below is an =incomplete= list of SKUs for A10 G505S models that > I was able to find. If there is a shortage in your country, maybe this list > could assist you in search (those mods with windows 8 are about $50 more > expensive and support evil M$, please dont get them ;-) ) > > 1) only 8650G (no dual graphics) + 4GB + FreeDOS = 59-410323 > 2) only 8650G (no dual graphics) + 8GB + FreeDOS = 59-405169 > 3) only 8650G (no dual graphics) + 4GB + Windows 8 = 59-380131 > 4) only 8650G (no dual graphics) + 6GB + Windows 8 = 59-373010 / > 59-406417 > 5) only 8650G (no dual graphics) + 8GB + Windows 8 = 59-403088 > 6) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 4GB + FreeDOS = 59-405168 > 7) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 6GB + FreeDOS = 59-409773 > 8) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 8GB + FreeDOS = 59-380146 > / 59-387536 > 9) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 4GB + Windows 8 = > 59-407135 / 59410966 > 10) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 6GB + Windows 8 = > 59-382102 > 11) 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) + 8GB + Windows 8 = > 59-401209 > 12) 8650G + AMD R5 M230 (dual graphics, slightly faster) + 4GB + > FreeDOS = 59-410881 > 13) 8650G + AMD R5 M230 (dual graphics, slightly faster) + 8GB + > FreeDOS = 59-410885 > 14) 8650G + AMD R5 M230 (dual graphics, slightly faster) + 4GB + > Windows 8 = 59-408604 > 15) 8650G + AMD R5 M230 (dual graphics, slightly faster) + 8GB + > Windows 8 = 59-410883 > > On 6 April 2015 at 14:20, Emilian Bold emilian.bold@gmail.com > wrote: > >> I can confirm I'm still able to buy a G505S in my country but it >> seems to have the quad core A8-4500M (not the A10) with a dedicated >> Radeon HD 8570M. >> >> It's a decent machine and it would be great to have it on the >> official LTS list. >> >> Speaking of the list, I cannot find any store selling the Toshiba >> Satellite C50D-A mentioned in the wiki. >> >> --emi >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 1:45 PM, Vladimir quickcracktime@gmail.com >> wrote: >> >>> Dear coreboot developers, >>> >>> Francis Rowe (main Libreboot developer) has hinted an idea about >>> adding Lenovo G505S to Coreboot LTS Candidates list of laptops, which is >>> hosted at MrNuke's User talk coreboot wiki page. I believe it is an >>> excellent idea, because: >>> >>> *1)* Lenovo G505S contains AMD APU, so there is no need to deal >>> with Intel ME/AMT so-called "features" >>> *2)* this APU has Richland architecture: as result (unlike the >>> more recent AMD offerings) it doesn't have "AMD Secure" feature -- based on >>> ARM Trustzone technology which already has some exploits against it; there >>> are security concerns about ARM Trustzone that are similar to concerns >>> about Intel vPro "feature" (remote management etc.) >>> *3)* this APU is A10-5750M, the most powerful mobile APU among >>> Richland designs - as result, this laptop is still very competitive >>> regarding its performance, and also price/performance >>> *4)* Unlike the older HP M6-1035DX amd laptop, Lenovo G505S seems >>> to be a very popular model: even now, more than 1.5 years after its' >>> introduction, there are >200 Internet shops in my large city still selling >>> it new in box - not used/refurbished >>> *5)* Lenovo G505s works without microcode updates, and already >>> has a working Coreboot build (although Video BIOS and SMU firmware have >>> blobs that are still not reverse-engineered; and some minor issues - e.g. >>> ACPI not perfect yet ) >>> >>> These great points are making me wonder, why this interesting >>> laptop still haven't been added to that LTS Candidates list? Does it fail >>> to meet some requirement for LTS candidates in a not-obvious way >>> (RYF-certifiable,Sturdy,Long shelf-life,Cool factor) or there is some >>> not-listed AMD laptop that could be a better candidate? >>> >>> By the way, I have discovered that there are many modifications of >>> Lenovo G505S, which could be divided into three primary groups by their >>> major difference - GPU *(minor differences, such as different >>> size of RAM or hard drive, are not interesting)* >>> GPU modification groups: >>> *1)* only 8650G, which is built-in into APU (no dual graphics) >>> *2)* 8650G + AMD HD 8570M (dual graphics) >>> *3)* 8650G + AMD R5 M230 ( dual graphics, slightly more powerful >>> than "2)" ) >>> Are these modifications all supported by Coreboot? And would be >>> there any additional difficulties regarding modifications with dual >>> graphics? >>> >>> Your answers and opinions will be very welcome >>> Best regards, >>> Vladimir Shipovalov >>> >>> -- >>> coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org >>> http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot >>> >> >> >