Hi, I've been watching this mailing list for a long time mostly to see the progress on the Gigabyte M575SLI and things seem to be looking very nice. I have 2 questions: how easy is it to build the LinuxBIOS and flash it without bricking it? (I've been looking at the sideproject here about using the extra bios socket, but my soldering skills are not very good and I don't have much in the way of decent soldering tools) and also, how easy is it to set what would be normal BIOS settings like voltage, cpu multipliers, etc... (For say overclocking a system) I've heard about a Google SoC project to get some sort of CMOS setup like interface after it is booted, but it seems you have to hard code these values in to the option file before you build the BIOS. Am I correct? And if so, what are all the options you can set?
Many thanks
Kevin
Hi Kevin
I have 2 questions: how easy is it to build the LinuxBIOS and flash it without bricking it?
It's not to hard if you are into compiling programs... the without bricking it part is interesting. I personnally wouldn't risk flashing it without the possibility to switch to a fallback option. Don't know about the rest.
ST
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 01:03:40AM -0500, Kevin Adler wrote:
how easy is it to build the LinuxBIOS and flash it
I would say that that the build process is fairly easy;
First, prepare a payload. I would pick etherboot in order to easily experiment with different payloads, then adjust the payload line in targets/gigabyte/m57sli/Config.lb to point to the payload file. Then:
cd targets ./buildtarget gigabyte/m57sli cd gigabyte/m57sli/m57sli make
And now you should have a linuxbios.rom.
Flash it with flashrom -w linuxbios.rom
without bricking it?
:)
(I've been looking at the sideproject here about using the extra bios socket, but my soldering skills are not very good and I don't have much in the way of decent soldering tools)
If I couldn't solder I wouldn't experiment myself simply because it would be so much work to find someone who could fix it.
Perhaps you know someone who you could get some soldering help from?
One way to find a shop is to look for game console modification shops, they do this sort of thing (and more advanced things) all day and should be able to help you for around $50 if you bring the needed components. (PLCC socket, resistor, wire and switch) Possibly a friendly TV or radio repair shop could help too, but they may not have suitable soldering equipment for the surface mount parts.
and also, how easy is it to set what would be normal BIOS settings like voltage, cpu multipliers, etc... (For say overclocking a system)
None of these things were originally intended to be user settings, so currently you have to hack the source code.
LinuxBIOS is designed to configure the system for optimal performance while remaining within safe operation specifications for a particular board and configuration. LB determines max memory speed by reading the SPD identification EEPROM on RAM modules for example.
The desire to experiment with system performance and overclocking should not be overlooked however.. I think it's an important and exciting new use case.
I've heard about a Google SoC project to get some sort of CMOS setup like interface after it is booted
Yes. This project will primarily be for the new generation LinuxBIOS, v3, which is still in it's early stages of development, although it is hoped to soon run on real hardware. :)
This also means that the board is pretty much clean, and we would love to hear your ideas.
A great way to contribute to the project even if you don't write code is to say what you want. It's not always obvious to developers since we may be stuck in some certain way of thinking. (I know I would never want to overclock. :)
My personal wet dream in this case is for _everything_ to be user overridable, but I may be going a bit overboard..
//Peter
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 08:29:18PM +0200, Peter Stuge wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 01:03:40AM -0500, Kevin Adler wrote:
how easy is it to build the LinuxBIOS and flash it
I would say that that the build process is fairly easy;
First, prepare a payload. I would pick etherboot in order to easily experiment with different payloads, then adjust the payload line in targets/gigabyte/m57sli/Config.lb to point to the payload file. Then:
cd targets ./buildtarget gigabyte/m57sli cd gigabyte/m57sli/m57sli make
And now you should have a linuxbios.rom.
Flash it with flashrom -w linuxbios.rom
I've just updated the tuorial to reflect that everything now builds from the tree:
http://linuxbios.org/M57SLI-S4_Build_Tutorial
Thanks, Ward.
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 08:29:18PM +0200, Peter Stuge wrote:
One way to find a shop is to look for game console modification shops, they do this sort of thing (and more advanced things) all day and should be able to help you for around $50 if you bring the needed components. (PLCC socket, resistor, wire and switch) Possibly a friendly TV or radio repair shop could help too, but they may not have suitable soldering equipment for the surface mount parts.
Nice, can you please add this somewhere in the wiki (GA-M57SLI-S4 howto?)
and also, how easy is it to set what would be normal BIOS settings like voltage, cpu multipliers, etc... (For say overclocking a system)
None of these things were originally intended to be user settings, so currently you have to hack the source code.
LinuxBIOS is designed to configure the system for optimal performance while remaining within safe operation specifications for a particular board and configuration. LB determines max memory speed by reading the SPD identification EEPROM on RAM modules for example.
The desire to experiment with system performance and overclocking should not be overlooked however.. I think it's an important and exciting new use case.
Agreed. We should (and probbaly will) make LinuxBIOSv3 much more configurable in that respect.
My personal wet dream in this case is for _everything_ to be user overridable, but I may be going a bit overboard..
Nope. I have the same wet dream ;) Maximum configurability is a great benefit of LinuxBIOS (unusual or complex options should be hidden behind an "expert" button of course, but the options should definatly be there).
Uwe.
On Sat, Apr 28, 2007 at 02:09:38AM +0200, Uwe Hermann wrote:
On Fri, Apr 27, 2007 at 08:29:18PM +0200, Peter Stuge wrote:
One way to find a shop is to look for game console modification shops, they do this sort of thing (and more advanced things) all day and should be able to help you for around $50 if you bring the needed components. (PLCC socket, resistor, wire and switch) Possibly a friendly TV or radio repair shop could help too, but they may not have suitable soldering equipment for the surface mount parts.
Nice, can you please add this somewhere in the wiki (GA-M57SLI-S4 howto?)
I've added it; hope you don't mind Peter!
Thanks, Ward.
On Tue, May 01, 2007 at 12:47:54PM -0400, Ward Vandewege wrote:
I've added it; hope you don't mind Peter!
Not at all. Thanks!
//Peter
--- Peter Stuge stuge-linuxbios@cdy.org wrote:
I've heard about a Google SoC project to get some sort of CMOS setup like interface after it is booted
Yes. This project will primarily be for the new generation LinuxBIOS, v3, which is still in it's early stages of development, although it is hoped to soon run on real hardware. :)
This also means that the board is pretty much clean, and we would love to hear your ideas.
I think the most important feature that is lacking in LinuxBIOS is a configurable boot order. This isn't a limitation of LinuxBIOS itself, but rather of the bootloader that is flashed to the ROM.
It would be nice if FILO or GRUB2 or a Linux/userspace boot app would allow the user to specify the order and then remember it for subsequent reboots. Here's how I imagine it to work:
While loading, LinuxBIOS listens for a keyboard input (ie. Esc key). If it detects the pressed key at any point, it passes a flag to its direct payload (the flashed bootloader) indicating that the bootloader should allow the user to change the order in which devices are probed. While the bootloader is preparing, it should also listen for they key until the decision to go with a particular device has been made.
The bootloader should then be able to record this new order in the CMOS. The recording should preferably be done without any LinuxBIOS code being executed (LinuxBIOS is out of the picture by now).
Some nice touches to the above scenario would be:
1) Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message along the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
2) An X.org utility for changing boot order, as opposed to an ncurses-based one. This allows the user to use the mouse to drag and drop devices in the list. This alone would place LinuxBIOS ahead of proprietary BIOSes in terms of usability.
Vlad
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On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:49:53AM -0700, Vlad wrote:
- Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message along
the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
Bootsplash is overrated :)
I very much like VGA text mode, you know where you stand with VGA consoles.
- An X.org utility for changing boot order, as opposed to an
ncurses-based one. This allows the user to use the mouse to drag and drop devices in the list. This alone would place LinuxBIOS ahead of proprietary BIOSes in terms of usability.
YUCK!
What would be wrong with a curses utility? ( For those who prefer a bit of bling that is)
Really, what is this drive for GUIs. What's wrong with a nice command line utility.
If you need a gui to configure and flash your bios, then maybe you shouldn't be touching your bios at all.
Luc Verhaegen. X.org driver developer.
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 10:10:33PM +0200, Luc Verhaegen wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:49:53AM -0700, Vlad wrote:
- Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message
along the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
Bootsplash is overrated :)
In your opinion. I don't care much for it either, but I definately understand why people like it.
I very much like VGA text mode, you know where you stand with VGA consoles.
I also think that text mode has many benefits, but not everyone likes it, and that is fine, even good.
- An X.org utility for changing boot order, as opposed to an
ncurses-based one. This allows the user to use the mouse to drag and drop devices in the list. This alone would place LinuxBIOS ahead of proprietary BIOSes in terms of usability.
YUCK!
Please remember, you will not be forced to use this utility, Luc.
What would be wrong with a curses utility? ( For those who prefer a bit of bling that is)
Really, what is this drive for GUIs. What's wrong with a nice command line utility.
CLI is not for everyone. Personally I also like CLI, but that does not matter. Unless a product is comfortable it's users will run away screaming. It makes sense to have all the options available so that there's something to suit everyone.
If you need a gui to configure and flash your bios, then maybe you shouldn't be touching your bios at all.
I disagree strongly with this statement.
Technology must be adapted to man, not the other way around.
I think one big benefit of open source is that it allows consumers rather than producers to do these adapations. A smart consumer with a bit of time on her hands will do so much better than any producer.
Cheers! :)
//Peter
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 10:36:00PM +0200, Peter Stuge wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 10:10:33PM +0200, Luc Verhaegen wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:49:53AM -0700, Vlad wrote:
- Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message
along the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
Bootsplash is overrated :)
In your opinion. I don't care much for it either, but I definately understand why people like it.
True, but most people don't understand how involved modesetting is.
I very much like VGA text mode, you know where you stand with VGA consoles.
I also think that text mode has many benefits, but not everyone likes it, and that is fine, even good.
- An X.org utility for changing boot order, as opposed to an
ncurses-based one. This allows the user to use the mouse to drag and drop devices in the list. This alone would place LinuxBIOS ahead of proprietary BIOSes in terms of usability.
YUCK!
Please remember, you will not be forced to use this utility, Luc.
What would be wrong with a curses utility? ( For those who prefer a bit of bling that is)
Really, what is this drive for GUIs. What's wrong with a nice command line utility.
CLI is not for everyone. Personally I also like CLI, but that does not matter. Unless a product is comfortable it's users will run away screaming. It makes sense to have all the options available so that there's something to suit everyone.
Playing with linuxbios is not for everyone either. The drive should be towards adding hardware support, not towards blinging a few side utilities. Linuxbios will not become more widespread because of a gui.
If you need a gui to configure and flash your bios, then maybe you shouldn't be touching your bios at all.
I disagree strongly with this statement.
Technology must be adapted to man, not the other way around.
I think one big benefit of open source is that it allows consumers rather than producers to do these adapations. A smart consumer with a bit of time on her hands will do so much better than any producer.
Right, but the question here is how to spend that time. Turning things into a gui, tracking the more involved dependencies and API/ABI changes, that is not a good way to spend ones time.
Plus, if done improperly, this will reduce the ability to rework things to match different hardware. We should work towards the best technical solution, not the most glamourous.
Luc Verhaegen.
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 10:59:31PM +0200, Luc Verhaegen wrote:
Bootsplash is overrated :)
In your opinion. I don't care much for it either, but I definately understand why people like it.
True, but most people don't understand how involved modesetting is.
And they should not.
CLI is not for everyone.
Playing with linuxbios is not for everyone either.
Today, no. But I hope it will be.
The drive should be towards adding hardware support, not towards blinging a few side utilities.
I think both are important, like both Linux and X.org are important.
Linuxbios will not become more widespread because of a gui.
It might. LinuxBIOS will certainly not become less widespread because it offers an optional GUI.
A smart consumer with a bit of time on her hands will do so much better than any producer.
Right, but the question here is how to spend that time.
I think that's up to the user.
Turning things into a gui, tracking the more involved dependencies and API/ABI changes, that is not a good way to spend ones time.
A GUI does not automatically have adverse effects anywhere. The best designs allow any kind of user interface.
Plus, if done improperly, this will reduce the ability to rework things to match different hardware. We should work towards the best technical solution, not the most glamourous.
Again, I think that technology must be adapted to man. I don't think that's glamorous, just common sense. :) No users; useless technology.
Maybe I have to clarify that I think a prerequisite for any adaption of technology is that the technology actually is adaptable.
I find that good technical solutions usually are trivial to adapt.
Now, back on topic: (hehe)
I think the v3 technology is really good. It's certainly a great leap ahead from v2. I expect v4 will advance further. (I don't think anyone has thought about that yet, though.) This thread is about v3 suggestions and I think the time is right to also pay attention to reaching a wider audience.
Like my friends that are Windows power users and just recently managed to install a ubuntu firewall. It took them all day but they managed. They're a little intimidated, but also intrigued, by the many unfamiliar dialogs, concepts and tools. They will appreciate Linux when a few months have passed and they realize how well it works for them. They have several Pentium boxes. They don't like command lines. There is no reason they shouldn't run LinuxBIOS! :)
Am I too naive?
//Peter
Like my friends that are Windows power users and just recently managed to install a ubuntu firewall. It took them all day but they managed. They're a little intimidated, but also intrigued, by the many unfamiliar dialogs, concepts and tools. They will appreciate Linux when a few months have passed and they realize how well it works for them. They have several Pentium boxes. They don't like command lines. There is no reason they shouldn't run LinuxBIOS! :)
dos is a horrible command line. no wonder they dont like it.
On Wed, 2007-05-02 at 22:36 +0200, Peter Stuge wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 10:10:33PM +0200, Luc Verhaegen wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:49:53AM -0700, Vlad wrote:
- Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message
along the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
Bootsplash is overrated :)
In your opinion. I don't care much for it either, but I definately understand why people like it.
I very much like VGA text mode, you know where you stand with VGA consoles.
I also think that text mode has many benefits, but not everyone likes it, and that is fine, even good.
Ditto.
From what I recall, we (programmers, hackers, data entry, ...) were very
happy with text console editors for a very very long time until Microsoft came along with click & play gui o/s with notepad.exe and wordpad.exe. :-)
Just figure in all the problems and how many years it took for it to become usable (without data loss) and then stable (bug free).
irssi (ncurse based irc suits me just fine & dandy ;-). Plus, it doesn't require a lot of overhead, if any at all. :-)
-- Roger http://www.eskimo.com/~roger/index.html Key fingerprint = 8977 A252 2623 F567 70CD 1261 640F C963 1005 1D61
Wed May 2 13:59:30 PDT 2007
Luc Verhaegen wrote:
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:49:53AM -0700, Vlad wrote:
- Bootsplash in both LinuxBIOS and bootloader, with a message along
the lines of "Press the Esc key to change boot options".
Bootsplash is overrated :)
I very much like VGA text mode, you know where you stand with VGA consoles.
Yes, but who wants to see a text console on their brand new pda, embedded pc, or carpc? I personally like text console as well, but gotta think about end users too. Bootsplash should be an option, IMO, but I don't much care for the idea of a bios setup option, it would take up too much space and be too much of a hassle to deal with. LinuxBIOS is not Award/Phoenix/AMI BIOS, and shouldn't have to emulate them. When LinuxBIOS is used in embedded products, it should never need to have any setup options changed. If it's used on a desktop system, lxbios should be available, and there should be a fallback option in place should something go wrong, such as a payload for booting from USB, etc. Just my 2 cents.
Really, what is this drive for GUIs. What's wrong with a nice command line utility.
<snip>
X.org driver developer.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds this ironic :p
-Corey
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 04:37:55PM -0400, Corey Osgood wrote:
I don't much care for the idea of a bios setup option, it would take up too much space and be too much of a hassle to deal with.
It must be optional! But I think it has a lot of merit.
LinuxBIOS is not Award/Phoenix/AMI BIOS, and shouldn't have to emulate them.
No, I want to do so much better than them. Having a LinuxBIOS boot-time setup utility that just does what's in a random factory BIOS would mean we failed horribly in the creativity department.
When LinuxBIOS is used in embedded products, it should never need to have any setup options changed.
No, sure, but you may want to set them sometime. Probably before the product is in production.
If it's used on a desktop system, lxbios should be available, and there should be a fallback option in place should something go wrong, such as a payload for booting from USB, etc. Just my 2 cents.
I think we can do much better than the lxbios utility. :)
//Peter
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 04:37:55PM -0400, Corey Osgood wrote:
Yes, but who wants to see a text console on their brand new pda, embedded pc, or carpc? I personally like text console as well, but gotta think about end users too. Bootsplash should be an option, IMO, but I don't much care for the idea of a bios setup option, it would take up too much space and be too much of a hassle to deal with. LinuxBIOS is not Award/Phoenix/AMI BIOS, and shouldn't have to emulate them. When LinuxBIOS is used in embedded products, it should never need to have any setup options changed. If it's used on a desktop system, lxbios should be available, and there should be a fallback option in place should something go wrong, such as a payload for booting from USB, etc. Just my 2 cents.
When things are working well, one shouldn't have time to notice a VGA console. It's when things aren't working well when you're really really glad that the "nasty", "old" vga console is there.
Really, what is this drive for GUIs. What's wrong with a nice command line utility.
<snip> > X.org driver developer.
Please tell me I'm not the only one who finds this ironic :p
-Corey
I've been fighting VBE for years. Which is why my driver was so happy with plain linuxbios. I'm not about to start a direct VBE replacement, it only makes driver developers lazy.
Luc Verhaegen.
On Wed, May 02, 2007 at 11:32:51PM +0200, Luc Verhaegen wrote:
I'm not about to start a direct VBE replacement,
I hope and believe noone is advocating that. :)
As for the video BIOS issues in LinuxBIOS everything it's all about init of course. Said driver developers expect some state (could change, but will take a long time) and the user feels warm and fuzzy if there is confirmation that the system is working during boot (will not change) so there are several reasons we want it.
Also, LinuxBIOS will have to set lots of legacy junk up just to make Windows happy. Video is just one.
//Peter
Also, LinuxBIOS will have to set lots of legacy junk up just to make Windows happy. Video is just one.
i havent tried linuxbios yet, i am still following this list. is it possible to build without the legacy stuff? i would hate to put linux bios on my computer and still have legacy windows stuff there.
matt
Yes, but who wants to see a text console on their brand new pda, embedded pc, or carpc? I personally like text console as well, but gotta think about end users too. Bootsplash should be an option, IMO, but I don't much care for the idea of a bios setup option, it would take up too much space and be too much of a hassle to deal with. LinuxBIOS is not Award/Phoenix/AMI BIOS, and shouldn't have to emulate them. When LinuxBIOS is used in embedded products, it should never need to have any setup options changed. If it's used on a desktop system, lxbios should be available, and there should be a fallback option in place should something go wrong, such as a payload for booting from USB, etc. Just my 2 cents.
When things are working well, one shouldn't have time to notice a VGA console. It's when things aren't working well when you're really really glad that the "nasty", "old" vga console is there.
i prefer to see the text console and choose text over some splash screen. however i think the old vga console it ugly with the huge fonts. i think my ibook (running linux) uses framebuffer or something during boot and it has smaller fonts. also the firmware has small fonts too. does linux bios have this ?
matt
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Corey Osgood -
Kevin Adler -
Luc Verhaegen -
matt -
Peter Stuge -
roger -
ST -
Uwe Hermann -
Vlad -
Ward Vandewege