On Saturday, February 14, 2015 12:33:11 AM Marc Jones wrote:
On Fri Feb 13 2015 at 5:13:04 PM Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com
wrote:
On Saturday, February 14, 2015 12:05:28 AM Marc Jones wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Hi,
Please update the wiki page with project ideas. http://www.coreboot.org/Project_Ideas
That's the first unlocked page in the coreboot wiki I have seen for quite some time.
This comment is off topic. Please don't hijack the thread about GSOC. If you would like to discuss locked wiki pages please start another thread.
I respectfully disagree. I think collaboration is very relevant, _especially_ in the context of GSoC. And yet we have been moving away from this school of thought.
It's that time of the year it seems. Last year, there were talks about reducing the number of gerrit submitters. I'm certain you remember the anger this caused amongst non-commercial members of the community when the proposed list contained exclusively commercial community members, and I'm certain you remember how that almost lead to a fork.
This year's theme goes on the same lines. Except that it's not as tactful as last year. It's no longer "I'm planning to do this". It's "I've already done this". Let's see. We've locked most wiki pages to a select few contributors. A so-called code of conduct was unilaterally introduced. Let's look at each in part.
When it comes to the locked wiki pages keep in mind that most contributors make minor edits in response to real events. It has happened in the past that people were confused by the wording. So someone comes in and clarifies it on the spot, before they forget. Now those contributions get lost behind a non- collaborative barrier.
Now the code of conduct... What constitutes any of the 'bad' behaviors mentioned? What you really get is people refusing to express an idea or opinion in fear of violating said ill-defined code, and in fear of retaliation. It's called a chilling effect. Again, good ideas get lost behind a non-collaborative barrier.
Do we really want to push people's nerves every year until we finally get a fork?
Alex
Thanks, Marc
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
If you feel that it would be good then please do not waste any more time.
//Peter
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
Peter, you misquote me.
That *is* the last line of your mail. It's just one word though, so there's no context.
If you feel that it would be good then please do not waste any more time.
And then you misinterpret what I say.
The you above isn't specifically you personally, but rather meant to those who want to create a fork.
Forking can be a good thing, when done gracefully. But I also know the significant effort needed to create and maintain a respectful fork.
//Peter
Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se once said:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
If you feel that it would be good then please do not waste any more time.
At least we know malefic goading is permitted by the code of conduct.
Anthony
Anthony Martin wrote:
Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se once said:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
If you feel that it would be good then please do not waste any more time.
At least we know malefic goading is permitted by the code of conduct.
That's confusing to me. I'm not being the slightest malicious and I'm also not goading. I'll try to clarify:
If there are some developers who feel that a fork would be a good thing and that they can pull it off then I think they should go for it, rather than feeling bad in a project which they essentially disagree with. It would be much better for everybody if they respectfully did their own thing.
Some of you may know that I have a bit of experience with forks, and while it is a frequent opinion that forks are a waste of time I actually think it is the other way around - if there are different goals or different expectations then it is really important to be open and honest about that, and simply part ways on good terms.
Not all forks happen like that, probably because of human nature, but with some effort it is certainly possible, and I think it's something worth striving for.
//Peter
On 14.02.2015 03:27, Peter Stuge wrote:
Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se once said:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
a fork would be a good thing
Hey look, I can quote without context, too! I hope this explains why quoting without context should not be done.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
On Saturday, February 14, 2015 02:37:11 PM Peter Stuge wrote:
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
fork?
a fork would be a good thing
Hey look, I can quote without context, too! I hope this explains why quoting without context should not be done.
Did you just hijack (or fork, as Alex likes to call it) the thread?
I don't understand why whenever there's a sarcastic comment we call that hijacking. I call that healthy. Sarcasm is healthy.
Alex
On 14.02.2015 14:37, Peter Stuge wrote:
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
fork?
a fork would be a good thing
Hey look, I can quote without context, too! I hope this explains why quoting without context should not be done.
Did you just hijack (or fork, as Alex likes to call it) the thread?
No, I was just replying to you, and by selectively quoting you I even kept the topic you were talking about.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger wrote:
> fork?
..
I hope this explains why quoting without context should not be done.
Did you just hijack (or fork, as Alex likes to call it) the thread?
No, I was just replying to you, and by selectively quoting you I even kept the topic you were talking about.
To me it looks like you changed the topic of the thread to quoting. But never mind. Too much noise already.
Everyone have a nice Sunday!
//Peter
On Friday, February 13, 2015 06:08:51 PM Anthony Martin wrote:
Peter Stuge peter@stuge.se once said:
Alexandru Gagniuc wrote:
fork?
If you feel that it would be good then please do not waste any more time.
At least we know malefic goading is permitted by the code of conduct.
Coreboot has always been a free speech zone. One of the reasons I don't subscribe to the code of conduct is that it destroys this very fundamental aspect of our community.
Alex
* Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com [150214 02:14]:
It's that time of the year it seems. Last year, there were talks about reducing the number of gerrit submitters. I'm certain you remember the anger this caused amongst non-commercial members of the community when the proposed list contained exclusively commercial community members, and I'm certain you remember how that almost lead to a fork.
This year's theme goes on the same lines. Except that it's not as tactful as last year. It's no longer "I'm planning to do this". It's "I've already done this". Let's see. We've locked most wiki pages to a select few contributors. A so-called code of conduct was unilaterally introduced. Let's look at each in part.
[..]
Do we really want to push people's nerves every year until we finally get a fork?
Alex
Alex,
the leadership of this project reserves the right to enforce standards and, where required, lock down parts of coreboot.org or the mailing list to enforce those standards.
We value your contributions. We also understand that you may not find this situation acceptable and hence may not be able to continue as a contributor.
Stefan
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:21:44 PM Stefan Reinauer wrote:
- Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com [150214 02:14]:
[..]
Do we really want to push people's nerves every year until we finally get a fork?
Alex
Alex,
the leadership of this project reserves the right to enforce standards and, where required, lock down parts of coreboot.org or the mailing list to enforce those standards.
We value your contributions. We also understand that you may not find this situation acceptable and hence may not be able to continue as a contributor.
I think you've pointed just pointed out the root of the problem. Nobody can claim that you, or a small group of people is entitled to absolute power in the project. The fact that someone owns all or part of the infrastructure that runs coreboot does not entitle them to claim that they, or a small group of people have absolute power in the project.
If you, or any of the persons we contributors look towards as examples and guides fail to recognize that we are in fact a community, things will go south. I've seen it happen before, and I keep hoping it won't happen here.
I hope this gives all of us an idea of why people can get ticked off, and helps us avoid situations like this one (or the one last year) in the future.
Alex
P.S. I own part of the infrastructure that runs coreboot. Arguably, I own the most expensive part of said infrastructure. So what?
Hello! Here's suggestion.
Let's drop the whole business. Its taking over from the regular day to day business. ----- Gregg C Levine gregg.drwho8@gmail.com "This signature fought the Time Wars, time and again."
On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 4:48 PM, Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com wrote:
On Wednesday, February 18, 2015 10:21:44 PM Stefan Reinauer wrote:
- Alexandru Gagniuc mr.nuke.me@gmail.com [150214 02:14]:
[..]
Do we really want to push people's nerves every year until we finally get a fork?
Alex
Alex,
the leadership of this project reserves the right to enforce standards and, where required, lock down parts of coreboot.org or the mailing list to enforce those standards.
We value your contributions. We also understand that you may not find this situation acceptable and hence may not be able to continue as a contributor.
I think you've pointed just pointed out the root of the problem. Nobody can claim that you, or a small group of people is entitled to absolute power in the project. The fact that someone owns all or part of the infrastructure that runs coreboot does not entitle them to claim that they, or a small group of people have absolute power in the project.
If you, or any of the persons we contributors look towards as examples and guides fail to recognize that we are in fact a community, things will go south. I've seen it happen before, and I keep hoping it won't happen here.
I hope this gives all of us an idea of why people can get ticked off, and helps us avoid situations like this one (or the one last year) in the future.
Alex
P.S. I own part of the infrastructure that runs coreboot. Arguably, I own the most expensive part of said infrastructure. So what?
-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org http://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
-
Alexandru Gagniuc -
Anthony Martin -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
Gregg Levine -
Peter Stuge -
Stefan Reinauer