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On 01/17/2017 11:24 AM, Martin Roth wrote:
Hi Everyone, I suspect that everyone has already heard that unfortunately, the funding for Raptor Engineering's Talos workstation project was not successful, so I wanted to make a final post to wrap this up. Between 12 people, we had raised enough to buy the full system and a processor, and I'd like to once again thank everyone who committed money to helping the project.
If you haven't read Timothy's final post, I thought it was fairly relevant, although I suspect that many of the people in the coreboot community already know many of his points. https://www.crowdsupply.com/raptor-computing-systems/talos-secure-workstatio...
Also in the final update, Timothy mentions some of the future projects that Raptor is planning to work on, including developing an open BMC board for the Asus KGPE-D16 board. If anyone would like to help fund that, or transfer any of the money that they were going to use to support the Talos project, I'll match contributions with the money I was going to put towards Talos. He also mentions that he's going to keep working on open-power solutions, so I'm definitely looking forward to seeing what happens with that.
Regarding the BMC work, we're looking to enable a fully libre BMC on the KGPE-D16. This is a complex process involving significant reverse engineering efforts, writing new kernel drivers for the BMC, etc. With the BMC enabled, proper fan control can be established on the KGPE-D16, in addition to remote console access and of course remote power on / power off / reset functionality.
If this work can be funded, Raptor would chip in a matching amount to lower the costs to the community; essentially we're looking to fund half of the work internally but cannot justify the full cost of the work as the sole sponsor. Every little bit helps, so even if you can only chip in $100 please consider doing so.
I strongly encourage the community to assist in this effort; until OpenPOWER systems come down in price or RISC-V improves in performance (likely over a decade or more), the KGPE-D16 represents the maximum performance hardware available to those requiring a fully libre, blob-free firmware and kernel stack. Enabling a libre BMC option on these boards will make it easier for the organizations that rely on this hardware to manage their systems, helping them spend less time on routine maintainance and more time on their mission and/or further libre software development.
Thanks!
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:16 -0600 Timothy Pearson tpearson@raptorengineering.com wrote:
<snip>
Regarding the BMC work, we're looking to enable a fully libre BMC on the KGPE-D16. This is a complex process involving significant reverse engineering efforts, writing new kernel drivers for the BMC, etc. With the BMC enabled, proper fan control can be established on the KGPE-D16, in addition to remote console access and of course remote power on / power off / reset functionality.
If this work can be funded, Raptor would chip in a matching amount to lower the costs to the community; essentially we're looking to fund half of the work internally but cannot justify the full cost of the work as the sole sponsor. Every little bit helps, so even if you can only chip in $100 please consider doing so.
Do you think running a crowdfunding campaign again would help getting this funded / collecting donations? I don't know if you have to pay any fees for the various platforms out there, but I bet there are some for which you don't have to pay much.
I'm not thinking of a campaign like the Talos one, I just think it would be useful to keep track on how many people already donated, and how much is still missing to meet the goal. With 'useful' I mean it'd probably boost donations, in contrast to accepting donations quietly. So no big updates etc., just using their infrastructure for collecting donations. But after all, I've no idea about R&D etc. :P
If this is not too straight forward, may I ask of how much of community support you are thinking?
Thank you,
Merlin
Thanks!
Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org https://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
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On 01/17/2017 02:53 PM, Merlin Büge wrote:
On Tue, 17 Jan 2017 14:24:16 -0600 Timothy Pearson tpearson@raptorengineering.com wrote:
<snip>
Regarding the BMC work, we're looking to enable a fully libre BMC on the KGPE-D16. This is a complex process involving significant reverse engineering efforts, writing new kernel drivers for the BMC, etc. With the BMC enabled, proper fan control can be established on the KGPE-D16, in addition to remote console access and of course remote power on / power off / reset functionality.
If this work can be funded, Raptor would chip in a matching amount to lower the costs to the community; essentially we're looking to fund half of the work internally but cannot justify the full cost of the work as the sole sponsor. Every little bit helps, so even if you can only chip in $100 please consider doing so.
Do you think running a crowdfunding campaign again would help getting this funded / collecting donations? I don't know if you have to pay any fees for the various platforms out there, but I bet there are some for which you don't have to pay much.
I'm not thinking of a campaign like the Talos one, I just think it would be useful to keep track on how many people already donated, and how much is still missing to meet the goal. With 'useful' I mean it'd probably boost donations, in contrast to accepting donations quietly. So no big updates etc., just using their infrastructure for collecting donations. But after all, I've no idea about R&D etc. :P
If this is not too straight forward, may I ask of how much of community support you are thinking?
Thank you,
Merlin
Given our past experience with crowdfunding I would rather this be handled by the community itself; this allows the funds to go straight to the work instead of partially being used to pay for the platform and advertising costs.
We would like to see $20k USD from the community; we'll match (and actually slightly exceed) that internally to get the port completed and production qualified. From what I understand this amount is very close to what had been allocated originally for a Talos coreboot build server; the BMC work would allow more KGPE-D16 systems to be used to host pieces of coreboot worldwide.
As an added bonus, the BMC work would be directly applicable to the KGPE-D16's little sister, the KCMA-D8. The same (or slightly modified) BMC firmware should work on both machines.
Thanks!
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
Everyone,
We would like to see $20k USD from the community; we'll match (and actually slightly exceed) that internally to get the port completed and production qualified. From what I understand this amount is very close to what had been allocated originally for a Talos coreboot build server; the BMC work would allow more KGPE-D16 systems to be used to host pieces of coreboot worldwide.
What do you think?
It's not a Talos Workstation, of course, but it would still be a great step forward, having a performant board like the D8/D16 running fully libre soft- and firmware with a libre remote management option.
It seems like the D16 might become a long runner for quite some people, maybe like the libreboot-compatible GM45 platforms (X200, T400, T500), so probably this work would be of great benefit!
What do you think would be a good way to collect interest? The same way we were collecting pledges for a Talos build server?
How could we make pledging for this easily accessible to non mailing list members? We could set up a very simple webpage for that, maybe with an email address people can write to if they are willing to financially support the BMC porting. Or just link to the mailing list thread?
Is someone (who is more involved in the community than me) willing to coordinate gathering pledges, like taking them via email and keeping a list of them?
Thank you,
Merlin
As an added bonus, the BMC work would be directly applicable to the KGPE-D16's little sister, the KCMA-D8. The same (or slightly modified) BMC firmware should work on both machines.
Thanks!
Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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Hey Merlin, I was taking and keeping track of the pledges for Talos, so I'd be happy to continue.
Martin
On Wed, Jan 18, 2017 at 7:15 PM, Merlin Büge toni@bluenox07.de wrote:
Everyone,
We would like to see $20k USD from the community; we'll match (and actually slightly exceed) that internally to get the port completed and production qualified. From what I understand this amount is very close to what had been allocated originally for a Talos coreboot build server; the BMC work would allow more KGPE-D16 systems to be used to host pieces of coreboot worldwide.
What do you think?
It's not a Talos Workstation, of course, but it would still be a great step forward, having a performant board like the D8/D16 running fully libre soft- and firmware with a libre remote management option.
It seems like the D16 might become a long runner for quite some people, maybe like the libreboot-compatible GM45 platforms (X200, T400, T500), so probably this work would be of great benefit!
What do you think would be a good way to collect interest? The same way we were collecting pledges for a Talos build server?
How could we make pledging for this easily accessible to non mailing list members? We could set up a very simple webpage for that, maybe with an email address people can write to if they are willing to financially support the BMC porting. Or just link to the mailing list thread?
Is someone (who is more involved in the community than me) willing to coordinate gathering pledges, like taking them via email and keeping a list of them?
Thank you,
Merlin
As an added bonus, the BMC work would be directly applicable to the KGPE-D16's little sister, the KCMA-D8. The same (or slightly modified) BMC firmware should work on both machines.
Thanks!
Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
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-- Merlin Büge toni@bluenox07.de
-- coreboot mailing list: coreboot@coreboot.org https://www.coreboot.org/mailman/listinfo/coreboot
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 02:24:16PM -0600, Timothy Pearson wrote:
[...] Regarding the BMC work, we're looking to enable a fully libre BMC on the KGPE-D16. This is a complex process involving significant reverse engineering efforts, writing new kernel drivers for the BMC, etc. With the BMC enabled, proper fan control can be established on the KGPE-D16, in addition to remote console access and of course remote power on / power off / reset functionality.
Is your plan to base it on the existing OpenBMC project?
https://code.facebook.com/posts/1601610310055392/introducing-openbmc-an-open...
https://github.com/facebook/openbmc
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On 01/17/2017 04:52 PM, Trammell Hudson wrote:
On Tue, Jan 17, 2017 at 02:24:16PM -0600, Timothy Pearson wrote:
[...] Regarding the BMC work, we're looking to enable a fully libre BMC on the KGPE-D16. This is a complex process involving significant reverse engineering efforts, writing new kernel drivers for the BMC, etc. With the BMC enabled, proper fan control can be established on the KGPE-D16, in addition to remote console access and of course remote power on / power off / reset functionality.
Is your plan to base it on the existing OpenBMC project?
https://code.facebook.com/posts/1601610310055392/introducing-openbmc-an-open...
That is correct. We've done some initial work on this and a lot of functionality needed for the D16 is broken and / or completely missing from any of the OpenBMC trees; the work required to get everything functioning properly on the D16 (which OpenBMC was never designed for) is quite extensive.
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
Tim, how come you guys didn't go after government and corporate sources of funding? I read DARPA is really interested in assured computing these days.
Maybe there should be a fund for a IBM/TYAN POWER system for the coreboot project?, maybe better than being stuck doing development on an older platform?
Does anyone know how long ASUS will keep making new ones?
Something for people to think about - In 2012 a brand new KGPE-D16 spec'ed out with cpus and memory would have been just as much as a POWER8 system is now (I read on a forum that someone got a S822LC for 5K through an IBM corporate rep)
(I would just buy you guys one but I am unemployed despite the bogus "it worker shortage")
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On 01/17/2017 06:13 PM, Taiidan@gmx.com wrote:
Tim, how come you guys didn't go after government and corporate sources of funding? I read DARPA is really interested in assured computing these days.
Government procurement in the United States operates very differently than civilian procurement. Most agencies start by initiating a public request to accept bids to build a particular type of system, meaning that first you have to convince them that they need something badly enough to put out this first public request. We did attempt this but without prototype hardware in hand we were not able to proceed further; i.e. it ended up being a classic "chicken or egg" scenario.
Maybe there should be a fund for a IBM/TYAN POWER system for the coreboot project?, maybe better than being stuck doing development on an older platform?
I believe I have mentioned before that Raptor would be willing to consider this, but the sticker shock would probably mean it would not be funded. The cost for legally reverse engineering a Tyan machine and porting over the entire IBM firmware stack + OpenBMC would probably be north of $100k USD.
Does anyone know how long ASUS will keep making new ones?
That is uncertain. I would expect at *least* until Zen is shipping, and possibly a bit longer than that.
Something for people to think about - In 2012 a brand new KGPE-D16 spec'ed out with cpus and memory would have been just as much as a POWER8 system is now (I read on a forum that someone got a S822LC for 5K through an IBM corporate rep)
Be careful here; there are now two different S822LC models! The one that is nearly free (i.e just needs some additional "elbow grease" to free up the rest of the way) is codenamed Firestone and still retails for around $10k USD. The other one has unknown freedom status; I'd need to know the codename to check in the main repositories.
(I would just buy you guys one but I am unemployed despite the bogus "it worker shortage")
It is interesting, isn't it? I think that's just code for "no one wants the job at the wages we're willing to pay for the hours worked / IP transfer requirements".
- -- Timothy Pearson Raptor Engineering +1 (415) 727-8645 (direct line) +1 (512) 690-0200 (switchboard) https://www.raptorengineering.com
Speaking from a former buyer of hardware, I can tell you from long experience, it is *really* hard to specify coreboot as a mandatory requirement. I've got stories going back 17 years now.
Even when it makes sense, it's hard.
I don't think we should count on the gov't to do the right thing.
ron
-
Martin Roth -
Merlin Büge -
ron minnich -
Taiidan＠gmx.com -
Timothy Pearson -
Trammell Hudson