On 11/17/2013 12:00 PM, ron minnich wrote:
That's you. And in fact it's most of the Linux community. It's why it's so hard to make progress in this area, because the Linux community does *not* consider openness down to the hardware level as a priority, when measured against their other wants.
Exactly. It seems to me the linux community is tired of having linux be idealized for running efficiently on second-grade hardware. Of course I think the community is tired of linux being viewed mostly as a retirement home for desktops. The way I imagine the community sees it, as long as chromebooks are not shiny toys with V12 engines, good or bad as they may be, will be viewed as second-grade.
Which, I have to say, sets all my "Irony-detection" devices to 11 out of 10. :-)
I hope your hypocrisy gauge is still within range.
In many other cases, coreboot *is* a key usability feature (hence the many chromebooks being sold) and in those cases, it is a very high priority, if not the highest priority.
And, yes, you and I are both broken records where vendors are concerned. But vendors don't set priorities by anything but how many million units get sold. They don't care what we think :-)
[Broken record warning] What if, somehow, the community gathered a few brains, talked to a vendor, and convinced them to put coreboot on a yet-to-be-released product? It would almost seem like the community would do most of the work for free. What sort of responses have we received in the past with this approach? System 76, ThinkPenguin, Pudget, etc... have we tried any of them? They have sleek systems, and at least the first two value openness more than the average.
On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 12:46 PM, Alex mr.nuke.me@gmail.com wrote:
[Broken record warning] What if, somehow, the community gathered a few brains, talked to a vendor, and convinced them to put coreboot on a yet-to-be-released product? It would almost seem like the community would do most of the work for free. What sort of responses have we received in the past with this approach? System 76, ThinkPenguin, Pudget, etc... have we tried any of them? They have sleek systems, and at least the first two value openness more than the average.
I've tried before with some of those guys They're not going to help because they are not designers. Below a fairly high level, they don't know what's in their systems. Sure, it's a nice shiny skin. But all the real work is done by the ODM.
This is a really hard problem. Google is the first company, aside from Linux NetworX, to really commit to a product that uses coreboot. It's been nice to see.
It bothers me that so few people know what's inside their computers, but maybe it should not: most people don't know how their cars work either. Maybe the days of really understanding your hardware are gone.
ron
Am 17.11.2013 21:46, schrieb Alex:
[Broken record warning] What if, somehow, the community gathered a few brains, talked to a vendor, and convinced them to put coreboot on a yet-to-be-released product? It would almost seem like the community would do most of the work for free. What sort of responses have we received in the past with this approach? System 76, ThinkPenguin, Pudget, etc... have we tried any of them? They have sleek systems, and at least the first two value openness more than the average.
Those three list Intel based notebooks only (not even a token AMD device). From the point of view of free firmware, all of them are unsuitable, since free (and open, and trustable) Intel firmware implementations are only available for museum class^W^Wlong-term support hardware.
I think the only x86 notebook with completely free firmware these days that can be bought easily is http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/product/ibm-lenovo-thinkpad-x60-coreboot/ (featuring those Intel museum chips)
And I guess doing something like that group is the only working approach for now: Pick some notebook (something recent), free its firmware, sell the pre-modded boxes (and publish numbers!). If you manage to sell significant volumes (which shouldn't be all that large), that might turn some heads.
There are some issues with this approach: You're limited in your choice of base hardware (likely AMD/Via chipsets only, the EC must be manageable with reasonable effort) and it must be available for some time (no fun doing a port for 2 months, then selling the notebook for another 4, after which it's taken off the market, and you have to start from scratch). And, of course, when doing this, you carry the usual entrepreneurial risk.
Patrick
On 18-11-13 14:23, Patrick Georgi wrote:
Am 17.11.2013 21:46, schrieb Alex:
[Broken record warning] What if, somehow, the community gathered a few brains, talked to a vendor, and convinced them to put coreboot on a yet-to-be-released product? It would almost seem like the community would do most of the work for free. What sort of responses have we received in the past with this approach? System 76, ThinkPenguin, Pudget, etc... have we tried any of them? They have sleek systems, and at least the first two value openness more than the average.
Those three list Intel based notebooks only (not even a token AMD device).
Even worse, some have nVidia hardware in it making them even less attractive (yes Nuveou is progressing nicely, this is true).
From the point of view of free firmware, all of them are unsuitable, since free (and open, and trustable) Intel firmware implementations are only available for museum class^W^Wlong-term support hardware.
I think the only x86 notebook with completely free firmware these days that can be bought easily is http://shop.gluglug.org.uk/product/ibm-lenovo-thinkpad-x60-coreboot/ (featuring those Intel museum chips)
And I guess doing something like that group is the only working approach for now: Pick some notebook (something recent), free its firmware, sell the pre-modded boxes (and publish numbers!). If you manage to sell significant volumes (which shouldn't be all that large), that might turn some heads.
But then we get back to the start of this thread, to little people actually care (or know off) coreboot.
There are some issues with this approach: You're limited in your choice of base hardware (likely AMD/Via chipsets only, the EC must be manageable with reasonable effort) and it must be available for some time (no fun doing a port for 2 months, then selling the notebook for another 4, after which it's taken off the market, and you have to start from scratch). And, of course, when doing this, you carry the usual entrepreneurial risk.
while hardware stays around a lot longer then it used to (most are fast enough), finding one that can be easily supported is hard.
AMD should "develop" (e.g. get some ODM to supply it) some reference laptops and donate some to coreboot devs. Pitch in a bit to help where needed and I smell a winner. Since AMD belives in coreboot and support coreboot, making it actually happen would be in their own interest no?
Oliver
Patrick
May Santa Claus hear you.. ;-) Really!.. ;-) Florentin
----- Mail d'origine ----- De: Oliver Schinagl oliver+list@schinagl.nl À: coreboot@coreboot.org Envoyé: Mon, 18 Nov 2013 14:37:19 +0100 (CET) Objet: Re: [coreboot] BadBIOS Thoughts
...
AMD should "develop" (e.g. get some ODM to supply it) some reference laptops and donate some to coreboot devs. Pitch in a bit to help where needed and I smell a winner. Since AMD belives in coreboot and support coreboot, making it actually happen would be in their own interest no?
Oliver
...
Am 18.11.2013 14:37, schrieb Oliver Schinagl:
If you manage to sell significant volumes (which shouldn't be all that large), that might turn some heads.
But then we get back to the start of this thread, to little people actually care (or know off) coreboot.
I'd suppose sales in the 3 or 4 digits is possible with a current model, complete coreboot support and some advertising through the usual channels (linux/FOSS related news websites).
That this might be enough to get some corporate attention.
But then, this possibility depends on a hard technical problem (complete coreboot support for a current model).
There are some issues with this approach: You're limited in your choice of base hardware (likely AMD/Via chipsets only, the EC must be manageable with reasonable effort) and it must be available for some time (no fun doing a port for 2 months, then selling the notebook for another 4, after which it's taken off the market, and you have to start from scratch). And, of course, when doing this, you carry the usual entrepreneurial risk.
while hardware stays around a lot longer then it used to (most are fast enough), finding one that can be easily supported is hard.
It's not about the hardware remaining relevant (there are still people using the T60 on a day-to-day basis), it's about hardware shelf life. Unless you (the prospective coreboot-notebook vendor) intend to buy and store a couple of hundreds units yourself, you will want to work with hardware you can buy for a while in smaller chunks (and then reflash and put up for sale).
The notebook I'm typing this on was supported by its vendor for 1.5 years or so, but went out of sales after a bit more than 6 months.
I think that's relatively common for consumer level computers these days, given that their customers generally don't care if they get exactly the same model. For them it's about x" displays, y GB of storage and z GHz of CPU with a given hardware vendor's logo on them.
Few people have to care as much about hardware similarity as coreboot developers. Good for them, but it complicates a project like this.
For someone trying to pull this off, a good first step might be to inquire with vendors if they have long term supported AMD models, what "long term" means for them, and how to identify these models. Then, when the next generation AMD hardware comes out (eg. sometimes early 2014), pick one of those, do the port, put up a sales page.
I'm massively oversimplifying things here, but this seems to be more realistic than trying to get ODMs on board (unless you have money to burn - enough for a run of devices).
AMD should "develop" (e.g. get some ODM to supply it) some reference laptops and donate some to coreboot devs. Pitch in a bit to help where needed and I smell a winner. Since AMD belives in coreboot and support coreboot, making it actually happen would be in their own interest no?
Unless I'm mistaken AMD's coreboot support comes almost exclusively from their embedded business unit. The code should work pretty much the same on their other chips, but I suspect it's a stretch to assume their consumer ("desktop/mobile") hardware department even knows about coreboot.
Regards, Patrick
Am 18.11.2013 15:36 schrieb Patrick Georgi:
For someone trying to pull this off, a good first step might be to inquire with vendors if they have long term supported AMD models, what "long term" means for them, and how to identify these models. Then, when the next generation AMD hardware comes out (eg. sometimes early 2014), pick one of those, do the port, put up a sales page.
AFAICS all long term supported models are business models, generally not leading edge hardware, and often a bit more expensive than similar bleeding-edge models.
Looking at a popular price comparison website http://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/?cat=nb here in Germany, it can safely be said that VIA CPUs are unavailable in the laptop market, Intel-based CPUs with complete coreboot support are unavailable as well, and non-x86 is not an option for quite a few use cases. That leaves us with AMD-based laptops.
Would it be reasonable to say that a business laptop has between 12" and 15.9" display, at least 1.5 GHz CPU, and should be available for delivery within 4 days? If yes, this is the list of possible targets: http://goo.gl/58NX3t
The HP ProBook 455 G1 (H6P57EA) or the Lenovo ThinkPad Edge E535 (NZRFUGE) seem to be contenders with a reasonable price (below 500 EUR), quite a few shops selling them, and as nice bonus features they have USB 3.0 and Gigabit LAN as well as a non-glare display. The CPU/chipset are old enough to be supported and stable in coreboot. HP is advertising their ProBook line as "business laptops", and Lenovo is doing the same for the Thinkpad Edge series.
The interesting questions about the models are: - Is there long-term (i.e. >1 year) availability for any of the models in the price comparison list? - Do we have a way of finding out the EC present in those models?
The organizational questions are: - Does anyone have the spare time or spare cash needed to pull off a coreboot port? - Do we have the chance to get the EC datasheets and other info we need to get coreboot working?
I fear that lack of spare time is probably the biggest hurdle. And for a laptop vendor (except Google) to invest into coreboot we'd have to convince them first.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
On 11/18/2013 08:36 AM, Patrick Georgi wrote:
For someone trying to pull this off, a good first step might be to inquire with vendors if they have long term supported AMD models, what "long term" means for them, and how to identify these models. Then, when the next generation AMD hardware comes out (eg. sometimes early 2014), pick one of those, do the port, put up a sales page.
I'm massively oversimplifying things here, but this seems to be more realistic than trying to get ODMs on board (unless you have money to burn - enough for a run of devices).
Guys! Stop this nonsense. It didn't work in the past, it doesn't work now, and it won't work in the future. Once you buy that laptop, Phoenix/AMI/etc gets their money, Microsoft gets their money, Norton gets their money... you get the point. Manufacturers are enthralled to see their sales go up, and they love the fact that they can end their warranty obligations. What message did we just send?
"Don't worry 'bout what I care, just put the dang system on the market." All that is besides the fact that whoever buys such a system will pay almost twice what the system is worth, since the software fees are still included. The method you guys are discussing is not only plain stupid, it's also dangerous. It's dangerous for coreboot in that it undermines the power of voting with the wallet, and most definitely eliminates any incentive to consider coreboot as a factory default.
The next best thing, crowdfunding is also out of the picture as long as a coreboot non-profit does not exist.
The best we have, short of convincing a manufacturer to start corebootizing, is to petition Google to spit out a midrange chromebook with AMD undergarments. It's a long shot. Otherwise, I'm certain many of you will find existing chromebooks to outperform the ancient T60.
Alex
-- Sent from my Pavilion Chromebook running linux
On 20-11-13 07:11, mrnuke wrote:
On 11/18/2013 08:36 AM, Patrick Georgi wrote:
For someone trying to pull this off, a good first step might be to inquire with vendors if they have long term supported AMD models, what "long term" means for them, and how to identify these models. Then, when the next generation AMD hardware comes out (eg. sometimes early 2014), pick one of those, do the port, put up a sales page.
I'm massively oversimplifying things here, but this seems to be more realistic than trying to get ODMs on board (unless you have money to burn - enough for a run of devices).
Guys! Stop this nonsense. It didn't work in the past, it doesn't work now, and it won't work in the future. Once you buy that laptop, Phoenix/AMI/etc gets their money, Microsoft gets their money, Norton gets their money... you get the point. Manufacturers are enthralled to see their sales go up, and they love the fact that they can end their warranty obligations. What message did we just send?
What happened to decline the EULA and demand your money back? Nobody does that anymore?
"Don't worry 'bout what I care, just put the dang system on the market." All that is besides the fact that whoever buys such a system will pay almost twice what the system is worth, since the software fees are still included. The method you guys are discussing is not only plain stupid, it's also dangerous. It's dangerous for coreboot in that it undermines the power of voting with the wallet, and most definitely eliminates any incentive to consider coreboot as a factory default.
The next best thing, crowdfunding is also out of the picture as long as a coreboot non-profit does not exist.
The best we have, short of convincing a manufacturer to start corebootizing, is to petition Google to spit out a midrange chromebook with AMD undergarments. It's a long shot. Otherwise, I'm certain many of you will find existing chromebooks to outperform the ancient T60.
Alex
-- Sent from my Pavilion Chromebook running linux
On 11/20/2013 03:19 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
What happened to decline the EULA and demand your money back? Nobody does that anymore?
Did YOU ever do it?
On 20-11-13 10:48, mrnuke wrote:
On 11/20/2013 03:19 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
What happened to decline the EULA and demand your money back? Nobody does that anymore?
Did YOU ever do it?
I haven't bought (nor used at home) a windows license in well over 20? ... never. The only license I have is that came with my laptop, which was supplied by Uni, which is their volume key. I've built my own PC's for 20 years and when the day comes that I need to buy a new laptop, which isn't a hand down, I will definitely do this. I have no use nor desire for the license or the product.
Oliver
Watching this discussion is like watching a puppy chase its tail :-)
Minus the fact that we've seen this discussion before, and we've seen it go nowhere before, just as it is now :-(
Except that it's spiraling around the drain even faster than usual :-(
I understand people do not find the current situation ideal.
As of today, however, the only laptops you can buy *new* with a *modern chipset* that are remotely reasonable for coreboot are chromebooks. This simple fact is why I came to Google.
To do a laptop port you really need to interact with an EC. The EC has been a problem for years. If you want a sane EC (i.e. 32-bit, not some 8-bit POS emulating an 8051) and you want open source software for that EC and you want coreboot ... you're going to get a chromebook. And those three things, as we have learned many times, are pretty essential to a port, unless you want to spend 3 or more years on the port.
I've got a student coming in January and he's going to work on ChromeOS on AMD CPUs, starting with the Gizmo. If, at that time, someone has a suggestion for an AMD laptop which might be suitable, let me know.
ron
On 11/20/2013 08:57 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
On 20-11-13 10:48, mrnuke wrote:
On 11/20/2013 03:19 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
What happened to decline the EULA and demand your money back? Nobody does that anymore?
Did YOU ever do it?
I haven't bought (nor used at home) a windows license in well over 20? ... never. The only license I have is that came with my laptop, which was supplied by Uni, which is their volume key. I've built my own PC's for 20 years and when the day comes that I need to buy a new laptop, which isn't a hand down, I will definitely do this. I have no use nor desire for the license or the product.
In short, NO. Please don't speak out of body parts and without factual knowledge. More often than not, the manufacturer has offered to buy back the system, but outright refused to refund just the software. Closest I ever got was a $20 refund on a $400 laptop, but this was an attempt at stopping me from returning the whole device.
Alex
On 20-11-13 19:27, Alex G. wrote:
On 11/20/2013 08:57 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
On 20-11-13 10:48, mrnuke wrote:
On 11/20/2013 03:19 AM, Oliver Schinagl wrote:
What happened to decline the EULA and demand your money back? Nobody does that anymore?
Did YOU ever do it?
I haven't bought (nor used at home) a windows license in well over 20? ... never. The only license I have is that came with my laptop, which was supplied by Uni, which is their volume key. I've built my own PC's for 20 years and when the day comes that I need to buy a new laptop, which isn't a hand down, I will definitely do this. I have no use nor desire for the license or the product.
In short, NO. Please don't speak out of body parts and without factual knowledge. More often than not, the manufacturer has offered to buy back the system, but outright refused to refund just the software. Closest I ever got was a $20 refund on a $400 laptop, but this was an attempt at stopping me from returning the whole device.
Luckily we have laws here in Europe that at least try to protect us from that. In Italy Microsoft was even sued because of that.
Also consumer right organizations are fighting this as they also think it should be illegal.
In any case, with a PC its not really an issue, if you homebuilt, with a laptop it's a completely different story, and you can bet my bottom that I will fight this if push comes to shove.
Oliver
Alex
Am Mittwoch, den 20.11.2013, 00:11 -0600 schrieb mrnuke:
Guys! Stop this nonsense. It didn't work in the past, it doesn't work now, and it won't work in the future. Once you buy that laptop, Phoenix/AMI/etc gets their money, Microsoft gets their money, Norton gets their money... you get the point. Manufacturers are enthralled to
Microsoft money gets returned (even if it's just $30). Norton paid money to get installed (it's a 30 days demo for a reason). You won't get around the IBV fees with this model, I grant that.
The method you guys are discussing is not only plain stupid, it's also dangerous. It's dangerous for coreboot in that it undermines the power of voting with the wallet, and most definitely eliminates any incentive to consider coreboot as a factory default.
The proposal is for a market study - of which I wouldn't be too optimistic anyway. People would find something to gripe over to dismiss any such project anyway (so they can continue to buy Apple gear with good conscience).
The next best thing, crowdfunding is also out of the picture as long as a coreboot non-profit does not exist.
Why would an individual or company trying this on kickstarter require a coreboot non-profit?
-- Sent from my Pavilion Chromebook running linux
With which you (according to your theory above) stated that you have no problem with ME firmware and closed source memory init. And now we have FSP. Great job.
Patrick
On 11/20/2013 03:29 AM, Patrick Georgi wrote:
Microsoft money gets returned (even if it's just $30). Norton paid money to get installed (it's a 30 days demo for a reason). You won't get around the IBV fees with this model, I grant that.
How exactly do you get the software fees back without suing?
The proposal is for a market study - of which I wouldn't be too optimistic anyway. People would find something to gripe over to dismiss any such project anyway (so they can continue to buy Apple gear with good conscience).
Would you pay $1000 for a Pavilion 14 chromebook if it came with a full-HD display, bigger SSD, and coreboot+SeaBIOS ?
Point being, if this is just a market study, is, either the prices will have to be insane, or the researches loses tons of money.
Why would an individual or company trying this on kickstarter require a coreboot non-profit?
Income taxes.
With which you (according to your theory above) stated that you have no problem with ME firmware and closed source memory init. And now we have FSP. Great job.
You first need to raise awareness about coreboot, before going into the details. If I started describing the Levi-Civita connection on d-dimensional manifolds, without first talking at length about the geometry of surfaces in 3-space, you'd call me a mad man.
Alex
I vote for this!.. I for one, I will be ready to burn even more than 1k€, to get an AMD based chromebook. On the other hand we should be realistic : what if Google has agreements with Intel, forbiding them to even consider the use of AMD chipsets?.. Florentin
----- Mail d'origine ----- De: mrnuke mr.nuke.me@gmail.com À: coreboot@coreboot.org Envoyé: Wed, 20 Nov 2013 07:11:57 +0100 (CET) Objet: Re: [coreboot] BadBIOS Thoughts
...
The best we have, short of convincing a manufacturer to start corebootizing, is to petition Google to spit out a midrange chromebook with AMD undergarments. It's a long shot. Otherwise, I'm certain many of you will find existing chromebooks to outperform the ancient T60.
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Alex -
Alex G.
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Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
echelon＠free.fr -
mrnuke
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Oliver Schinagl -
Patrick Georgi -
ron minnich