SeaBIOS December 2011

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25 participants
64 discussions

Re: [SeaBIOS] (no subject)
by Peter Stuge 13 Dec '11

13 Dec '11

Fred . wrote: > Since we already have support for 32-bit PCI, then it would be great > if 64-bit PCI support could be added if it perhaps only require a > slight modification to the existing code. You have misunderstood. The release notes refer to 32bit PCI BIOS, in this case the CPU mode, and has nothing to do with bus width. //Peter

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Re: [SeaBIOS] (no subject)
by Fred . 13 Dec '11

13 Dec '11

On Mon, Dec 12, 2011 at 11:53 PM, David Hendricks <dhendrix(a)google.com> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Fred . <eldmannen(a)gmail.com> wrote: >> >> > The ability for SeaBIOS to launch a "setup program" is already present >> > - it just requires the creation of this setup program. Several >> > coreboot payloads already have some menu drawing code, so this >> > shouldn't be too difficult. Frankly though, there isn't much to >> > configure (and that is a good thing). >> > >> >> * Competition have password protection. SeaBIOS does not. >> > >> > Again - this is part of the "setup program" - there is nothing in >> > SeaBIOS to protect. >> The BIOS of the competition have two types of passwords. >> One to boot the system and one to access the setup screen. >> Password for bootup has nothing todo with the "setup program". >> Since there is currently no such setup program, the initial >> implementation for a bootup password could use a password configured >> at compile-time. > > > I think it's useful to step back and look at it in a different light. The > "competition" follows a very different usage model than coreboot and > SeaBIOS; Many commercial BIOS products are essentially OSes in themselves, > which has historically been considered a bad thing in the coreboot community > and by extension the SeaBIOS community. Much of the competition and also SeaBIOS is modular. So you can enable/disable features and modules to make it heavier/lighter depending on needs through configuration at compile-time. > From that perspective, it doesn't make much sense for SeaBIOS to have a boot > password when every modern OS has a robust authentication mechanism already. > > (you have some good ideas, but keep in mind many people simply want SeaBIOS > to do its job and get out of the way) A BIOS password would add an additional line of defense and protect against booting from a removable device such as CD or USB. An OS password would not protect against booting from removable media. Adding password support would probably be pretty trivial. > >> > >> >> * SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. It should support 64-bit PCI. >> > >> > I'm not sure what you mean here. >> I've read that SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. >> http://www.seabios.org/Releases#SeaBIOS_0.5.1 >> PCI also have 64-bit. >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI#64-bit_PCI > > > 64-bit PCI is actually obsolete. It was used for a period in server > platforms, but has been supplanted by PCI Express. > > David Hendricks (dhendrix) > Systems Software Engineer, Google Inc. Indeed. But 32-bit PCI is also obsolete, yet it is implemented in SeaBIOS. So 64-bit PCI should be added to a not-yet-implemented list or a low-priority list and then if anyone wants to work on it, they may do so. Since we already have support for 32-bit PCI, then it would be great if 64-bit PCI support could be added if it perhaps only require a slight modification to the existing code.

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Re: [SeaBIOS] (no subject)
by David Hendricks 12 Dec '11

12 Dec '11

On Sun, Dec 11, 2011 at 8:47 AM, Fred . <eldmannen(a)gmail.com> wrote: > > The ability for SeaBIOS to launch a "setup program" is already present > > - it just requires the creation of this setup program. Several > > coreboot payloads already have some menu drawing code, so this > > shouldn't be too difficult. Frankly though, there isn't much to > > configure (and that is a good thing). > > > >> * Competition have password protection. SeaBIOS does not. > > > > Again - this is part of the "setup program" - there is nothing in > > SeaBIOS to protect. > The BIOS of the competition have two types of passwords. > One to boot the system and one to access the setup screen. > Password for bootup has nothing todo with the "setup program". > Since there is currently no such setup program, the initial > implementation for a bootup password could use a password configured > at compile-time. > I think it's useful to step back and look at it in a different light. The "competition" follows a very different usage model than coreboot and SeaBIOS; Many commercial BIOS products are essentially OSes in themselves, which has historically been considered a bad thing in the coreboot community and by extension the SeaBIOS community. >From that perspective, it doesn't make much sense for SeaBIOS to have a boot password when every modern OS has a robust authentication mechanism already. (you have some good ideas, but keep in mind many people simply want SeaBIOS to do its job and get out of the way) > > >> * SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. It should support 64-bit PCI. > > > > I'm not sure what you mean here. > I've read that SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. > http://www.seabios.org/Releases#SeaBIOS_0.5.1 > PCI also have 64-bit. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conventional_PCI#64-bit_PCI 64-bit PCI is actually obsolete. It was used for a period in server platforms, but has been supplanted by PCI Express. David Hendricks (dhendrix) Systems Software Engineer, Google Inc.

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Re: [SeaBIOS] usb boot issue
by Wolfgang Kamp - datakamp 12 Dec '11

12 Dec '11

Hi Kevin, I have tested the Persimmon board again with several USB Sticks for booting with actual Coreboot and SeaBIOS. The actual version with EHCI bugfixes works fine. The issue is resolved. Thank you Regards Wolfgang

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Re: [SeaBIOS] (no subject)
by Kevin O'Connor 11 Dec '11

11 Dec '11

On Sat, Dec 10, 2011 at 07:30:19PM +0100, Fred . wrote: > Analyze of the current state and proposed future path for SeaBIOS. > > == Website == > The current SeaBIOS website lacks information and is very basic. > SeaBIOS needs a more informative website with documentation and information. It would be a good thing to expand the website. I've wanted to add more technical information to the website, but I have not been able to set aside the time to do it. > == Logo == > SeaBIOS have no logo. > Award/Phoenix, AMI, Insyde, etc have a logo. > Perhaps SeaBIOS should have a logo too? If someone is willing to put together a logo, I will consider using it. I have no talent in that area myself. :-) > == Features & Standards == > In many aspects SeaBIOS is behind the competition. > > * Award/Phoenix, AMI, Inside have setup screen. SeaBIOS does not. > SeaBIOS _needs_ a setup menu in order to win the minds of enthusiasts, > geeks and non-embedded systems. This may be a semantic distinction, but I believe SeaBIOS should launch an application for system setup and SeaBIOS should not itself have a menu system. The ability for SeaBIOS to launch a "setup program" is already present - it just requires the creation of this setup program. Several coreboot payloads already have some menu drawing code, so this shouldn't be too difficult. Frankly though, there isn't much to configure (and that is a good thing). > * Competition have password protection. SeaBIOS does not. Again - this is part of the "setup program" - there is nothing in SeaBIOS to protect. > * SeaBIOS is behind in standards. SeaBIOS supports SMBIOS 2.4, while > the competition is ahead, and the recent standard is SMBIOS 2.7.1. > > * SeaBIOS does not support ESCD. The competition supports this. There are a plethora of old "standards" for PC machines. Supporting all of these "standards" would take eons and provide little appreciable gain. The SeaBIOS approach (inherited from Bochs BIOS) is to support those standards which common operating systems use. I think this is the right approach. > * SeaBIOS does not support (GUID Partition Table) GPT. It seems the > competition does not either. However it is possible to implement GPT > support in BIOS. Doing so would give SeaBIOS a competitive advantage > over the competition. This is a common misconception - a standard BIOS has nothing to do with the partition table. The BIOS doesn't do partition tables - it's the task of the bootloader and OS to support them. > * SeaBIOS supports USB UHCI and OHCI. It should support the latest xHCI. Agreed. > * SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. It should support 64-bit PCI. I'm not sure what you mean here. > * Competition supports small logos in the corners. SeaBIOS only > supports fullscreen logos. > > What features are under development? > What features & standards are not supported yet? > What features would we like to have? > What features are planned? > We need to document this. > > == Unimportant features == > * SeaBIOS does not support the PNG format which is superior to > currently BMP and JPG. > * SeaBIOS uses LZMA compression. The successor LZMA2 is out. > * Linux and Windows have animated splash screens on bootup. It would > be cool if SeaBIOS could have animated flash, via APNG or MNG. SeaBIOS boots fast - there's no time to show a splash screen. That's its real advantage. Should someone wish to see a pretty picture during boot, they can easily add it to the bootloader (eg, as winldr and grub do). That said, should someone wish to add new splash screen support, I don't see it as an issue. > == Usage & Community == > SeaBIOS is used by coreboot, KVM, QEMU and Bochs. Bochs doesn't use SeaBIOS (at least by default). Xen is in the process of using SeaBIOS as well. > SeaBIOS should be used more widely on platforms and platform virtual machines. > SeaBIOS should be supported by VirtualBox and VMware, can this be > accomplished? how? I believe VirtualBox uses (or at least used to use) Bochs BIOS, and it should be possible to migrate to SeaBIOS. It would be up to VMware if they wished to change BIOS. > What other platform virtual machines can SeaBIOS be supported/integrated with? > The different communities needs to work tighter together to commonly > develop SeaBIOS into a tier one BIOS. -Kevin

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Analysis of the current state and proposed future path for SeaBIOS.
by Fred . 10 Dec '11

10 Dec '11

Analysis of the current state and proposed future path for SeaBIOS. == Website == The current SeaBIOS website lacks information and is very basic. SeaBIOS needs a more informative website with documentation and information. == Logo == SeaBIOS have no logo. Award/Phoenix, AMI, Insyde, etc have a logo. Perhaps SeaBIOS should have a logo too? == Features & Standards == In many aspects SeaBIOS is behind the competition. * Award/Phoenix, AMI, Inside have setup screen. SeaBIOS does not. SeaBIOS _needs_ a setup menu in order to win the minds of enthusiasts, geeks and non-embedded systems. * Competition have password protection. SeaBIOS does not. * SeaBIOS is behind in standards. SeaBIOS supports SMBIOS 2.4, while the competition is ahead, and the recent standard is SMBIOS 2.7.1. * SeaBIOS does not support ESCD. The competition supports this. * SeaBIOS does not support (GUID Partition Table) GPT. It seems the competition does not either. However it is possible to implement GPT support in BIOS. Doing so would give SeaBIOS a competitive advantage over the competition. * SeaBIOS supports USB UHCI and OHCI. It should support the latest xHCI. * SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. It should support 64-bit PCI. * Competition supports small logos in the corners. SeaBIOS only supports fullscreen logos. What features are under development? What features & standards are not supported yet? What features would we like to have? What features are planned? We need to document this. == Unimportant features == * SeaBIOS does not support the PNG format which is superior to currently BMP and JPG. * SeaBIOS uses LZMA compression. The successor LZMA2 is out. * Linux and Windows have animated splash screens on bootup. It would be cool if SeaBIOS could have animated flash, via APNG or MNG. == Usage & Community == SeaBIOS is used by coreboot, KVM, QEMU and Bochs. SeaBIOS should be used more widely on platforms and platform virtual machines. SeaBIOS should be supported by VirtualBox and VMware, can this be accomplished? how? What other platform virtual machines can SeaBIOS be supported/integrated with? The different communities needs to work tighter together to commonly develop SeaBIOS into a tier one BIOS.

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Re: [SeaBIOS] usb boot issue
by Kevin O'Connor 10 Dec '11

10 Dec '11

On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 03:56:48PM +0200, Wolfgang Kamp - datakamp wrote: > > Hi, > > is there any solution for the usb boot issue of the AMD SB800 Persimmon platform > with SeaBIOS 1.6.3 and actual Coreboot version? I'm unfamiliar with the issue. Can you post the SeaBIOS debug output along with a description of the issue you are seeing? -Kevin

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(no subject)
by Fred . 10 Dec '11

10 Dec '11

Analyze of the current state and proposed future path for SeaBIOS. == Website == The current SeaBIOS website lacks information and is very basic. SeaBIOS needs a more informative website with documentation and information. == Logo == SeaBIOS have no logo. Award/Phoenix, AMI, Insyde, etc have a logo. Perhaps SeaBIOS should have a logo too? == Features & Standards == In many aspects SeaBIOS is behind the competition. * Award/Phoenix, AMI, Inside have setup screen. SeaBIOS does not. SeaBIOS _needs_ a setup menu in order to win the minds of enthusiasts, geeks and non-embedded systems. * Competition have password protection. SeaBIOS does not. * SeaBIOS is behind in standards. SeaBIOS supports SMBIOS 2.4, while the competition is ahead, and the recent standard is SMBIOS 2.7.1. * SeaBIOS does not support ESCD. The competition supports this. * SeaBIOS does not support (GUID Partition Table) GPT. It seems the competition does not either. However it is possible to implement GPT support in BIOS. Doing so would give SeaBIOS a competitive advantage over the competition. * SeaBIOS supports USB UHCI and OHCI. It should support the latest xHCI. * SeaBIOS supports 32-bit PCI. It should support 64-bit PCI. * Competition supports small logos in the corners. SeaBIOS only supports fullscreen logos. What features are under development? What features & standards are not supported yet? What features would we like to have? What features are planned? We need to document this. == Unimportant features == * SeaBIOS does not support the PNG format which is superior to currently BMP and JPG. * SeaBIOS uses LZMA compression. The successor LZMA2 is out. * Linux and Windows have animated splash screens on bootup. It would be cool if SeaBIOS could have animated flash, via APNG or MNG. == Usage & Community == SeaBIOS is used by coreboot, KVM, QEMU and Bochs. SeaBIOS should be used more widely on platforms and platform virtual machines. SeaBIOS should be supported by VirtualBox and VMware, can this be accomplished? how? What other platform virtual machines can SeaBIOS be supported/integrated with? The different communities needs to work tighter together to commonly develop SeaBIOS into a tier one BIOS.

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Re: [SeaBIOS] Simple Boot Flag Specification
by David Hendricks 10 Dec '11

10 Dec '11

On Fri, Dec 9, 2011 at 6:52 PM, Fred . <eldmannen(a)gmail.com> wrote: > Faster booting due to not POSTing. > SBFS doesn't really speed up boot or prevent "POSTing," unless perhaps you're running on one of those firmware implementations that look more like middleware bloat. That use case doesn't exist in the coreboot and SeaBIOS world :-)

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Re: [SeaBIOS] Simple Boot Flag Specification
by Peter Stuge 10 Dec '11

10 Dec '11

Hi Fred, Please remember to avoid top-posting. It makes mailing list discussions incredibly awkward to follow. Fred . wrote: > >> I am not a programmer. > >> But I looked at the specification and it looks short and simple, so it > >> looks like it would be quick and easy for a programmer to implement. > > > > What would be the benefit? > > Faster booting Did you use SeaBIOS and found it to be too slow? > due to not POSTing. What, concretely, do you mean by POSTing here? I expect you have already studied what SeaBIOS does and does not do when it runs.. //Peter

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SeaBIOS December 2011