Re: [flashrom] IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

[Stefan Tauner]

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 18:17:19 -0400
[e-mail] wrote:
> If I'm reading the flashrom site correctly this is one of the flash chips 
> that flashrom has support for already.  So that might be a plus.

Yes, the flash chip itself wont be a problem.

There is a service manual for the POS located at
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/software/retail/pubs/hw/4800_surepos700/btd5_4800-723-743-783_hsg_mst.pdf
and it mentions a "backup bios" in the service processor section. That
could complicate things further (or help you out if something fails if
you are very lucky, but usually it make things worse for us).
The remainder of the document is not very helpful (targeted at users
not developers).
> > I'd venture a guess that we can do this before IBM can
> > even give you a quote.
>
> What kind of information would you want?  I have pretty solid connections 
> with IBM I may be able to get questions answered about this.

A schematic that contains the data path between the southbridge and the
flash chip as well as its relation to the Renesas IC would indicate if we
have to take care about the Renesas at all. Any additional information
regarding the BIOS upgrade process (e.g. if the version of the Renesas'
firmware has to be kept in sync with the BIOS) or the service
processor's interaction with the flash chip would be very welcome too.

Above all we need to work on the support for the VIA chipset (VT8251),
but IBM won't be able to help us with that. I have no news regarding
that.

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

Sorry to say IBMs initial responses to my queries we're not positive. Even 
if I can get them to provide information, they may invoke our MNDA so I 
might not be able to share it.  I pushed back a little to see if it was 
just a knee jerk reaction or if they really feel like some of this info is 
truly confidential.

They of course provided the generic response of "I will also warn that 
flashing firmware not provided as a complete upgrade package from IBM will 
likely make your motherboard inoperable and unrecoverable. ".  Which might 
be believable for someone that doesn't know anything about computers or 
electrical engineering.  I've spent the better part of 2 decades working 
with computers and electronics and I know it's not true.  Don't get me 
wrong, if you do it "incorrectly" you can certainly break it, but if done 
correctly there is no reason to think that it would magically become 
inoperable.

I did take a closer look at some of their BIOS update tools and it looks 
like they do have some other firmware imbedded in with the BIOS updates, 
looks like some kind of riser card update, and something with the service 
processor.  Their documentation isn't real clear what some of the bits and 
pieces are actually updating.  But it is clear that they have multiple 
firmware devices being updated using a couple of different tools.  An 
spFwUpdt.com program to update the service processor, then they use 
awdflash.exe to apply two different bits of firmware one 1,024KB and the 
other 64KB.

I also notice the comment about the backup bios, from past experience with 
IBM I've seen quite a few of their systems come with backup bios 
capability.  It's handy if something goes wrong when flashing the 
firmware, if something goes wrong the system will automatically load off 
the backup version.  I thought I saw something a few years back that 
suggested they alternate which flash chip they update so that the version 
that is currently booting isn't overwritten when you flash a new version, 
just the one in the current backup.  Could be mistaken on that just 
something I remember, triggered by Stefan's comments....

FYI - Thanks for answering some questions and discussing the possibilities 
with me.

Jason Vannest

From:
Stefan Tauner 
To:
[e-mail], 
Cc:
[e-mail], Carl-Daniel Hailfinger 

Date:
07/16/2012 07:57 AM
Subject:
Re: [flashrom] IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 18:17:19 -0400
[e-mail] wrote:
> If I'm reading the flashrom site correctly this is one of the flash

chips
> that flashrom has support for already.  So that might be a plus.

Yes, the flash chip itself wont be a problem.

There is a service manual for the POS located at
ftp://ftp.software.ibm.com/software/retail/pubs/hw/4800_surepos700/btd5_4800-723-743-783_hsg_mst.pdf

and it mentions a "backup bios" in the service processor section. That
could complicate things further (or help you out if something fails if
you are very lucky, but usually it make things worse for us).
The remainder of the document is not very helpful (targeted at users
not developers).
> > I'd venture a guess that we can do this before IBM can
> > even give you a quote.
>
> What kind of information would you want?  I have pretty solid

connections
> with IBM I may be able to get questions answered about this.

A schematic that contains the data path between the southbridge and the
flash chip as well as its relation to the Renesas IC would indicate if we
have to take care about the Renesas at all. Any additional information
regarding the BIOS upgrade process (e.g. if the version of the Renesas'
firmware has to be kept in sync with the BIOS) or the service
processor's interaction with the flash chip would be very welcome too.

Above all we need to work on the support for the VIA chipset (VT8251),
but IBM won't be able to help us with that. I have no news regarding
that.

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

[Stefan Tauner]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:57:36 +0200
Stefan Tauner  wrote:
> Above all we need to work on the support for the VIA chipset (VT8251),
> but IBM won't be able to help us with that. I have no news regarding
> that.

Hello again,

i have a patch for you to test. It tries to add support for the VT8251
by using the code for similar VIA chipsets. We are pretty confident
that it will work although we could not verify it against a datasheet
(yet). The Renesas chip might still be a problem, but we hopefully be
able to take one step forward. Please apply the attached patch to the
current subversion head and send us the output of

flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop

and if that finds a chip also the output of

flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop -r testfile.bin

Please don't try to write or erase yet!

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

[Idwer Vollering]

2012/7/20 Stefan Tauner :
> On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:57:36 +0200
> Stefan Tauner  wrote:
> > Above all we need to work on the support for the VIA chipset (VT8251),
> > but IBM won't be able to help us with that. I have no news regarding
> > that.
>
> Hello again,
>
> i have a patch for you to test. It tries to add support for the VT8251
> by using the code for similar VIA chipsets. We are pretty confident
> that it will work although we could not verify it against a datasheet
> (yet). The Renesas chip might still be a problem, but we hopefully be
> able to take one step forward. Please apply the attached patch to the
> current subversion head

You can find the subversion URI here:
http://www.flashrom.org/Downloads#Installation_from_source
Run 'make' after patching.
> and send us the output of
>
> flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop
>
> and if that finds a chip also the output of
>
> flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop -r testfile.bin
> Please don't try to write or erase yet!
>
> Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner
>
> flashrom mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.flashrom.org/mailman/listinfo/flashrom

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

[Stefan Tauner]

Hello Jason!

I have sent you a patch to try almost a month ago without any reply. I
would like to know if you could solve your problem another way and
don't rely on getting flashrom to work anymore. In any case it would be
much appreciated if you could test the patch i have sent. Is that
possible? If you need any assistance dont hesitate to ask us!

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

Sorry Stefan,

I've been busy and our test lab is being used to do a regression right now 
so I've not had time to try and compile and test the patch you provided.

I do intend to do so, give me a little more time and I'll see what I can 
do.

On the topic of IBM and help, I have been in discussion with IBM about the 
firmware updates and they have been very adamant that we need to insure 
that we update all the devices not just the BIOS itself.  From looking at 
a handful of their update packages, I can see that they frequently include 
updates for riser cards, service processors and possibly other devices 
with the BIOS updates.  So before we implement something with flashrom we 
would want to make sure we're not missing something that could later cause 
us issues even if the issues are only that IBM is unhappy  because we 
didn't follow their update procedures.

IBM's retail group is going through some changes since Toshiba acquired 
them.  We'll need to wait and see what the new management is going to do, 
maybe they will be more open to open source involvement.

Thanks.

Jason Vannest
Information Technology - Store Systems
Abercrombie & Fitch
614-283-6363 (desk)

From:
Stefan Tauner 
To:
[e-mail], 
Cc:
[e-mail]
Date:
08/14/2012 07:23 PM
Subject:
Re: [flashrom] IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

Hello Jason!

I have sent you a patch to try almost a month ago without any reply. I
would like to know if you could solve your problem another way and
don't rely on getting flashrom to work anymore. In any case it would be
much appreciated if you could test the patch i have sent. Is that
possible? If you need any assistance dont hesitate to ask us!

IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

I slipped a quick test in while the testers are doing some other tests.  I 
think it's doing what you wanted to see.  I've attached the debug data 
your looking for.

Jason Vannest
Information Technology - Store Systems
Abercrombie & Fitch
614-283-6363 (desk)

From:
Stefan Tauner 
To:
[e-mail], 
Cc:
[e-mail]
Date:
07/19/2012 07:52 PM
Subject:
Re: [flashrom] IBM SurePOS 700 4800-783 support

On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 13:57:36 +0200
Stefan Tauner  wrote:
> Above all we need to work on the support for the VIA chipset (VT8251),
> but IBM won't be able to help us with that. I have no news regarding
> that.

Hello again,

i have a patch for you to test. It tries to add support for the VT8251
by using the code for similar VIA chipsets. We are pretty confident
that it will work although we could not verify it against a datasheet
(yet). The Renesas chip might still be a problem, but we hopefully be
able to take one step forward. Please apply the attached patch to the
current subversion head and send us the output of

flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop

and if that finds a chip also the output of

flashrom -V -p internal:laptop=this_is_not_a_laptop -r testfile.bin

Please don't try to write or erase yet!