Dear flashrom community,
I have just banned Nico Huber from flashrom gerrit and mailing list. This is a result of what was happening on flashrom during the last ~3 years. Nico has a long track record of bullying other developers, attacking people on public channels (Gerrit and mailing list), writing long toxic comments which blocked other people's work, and lying in all public channels. During recent years, Nico was the reason why several talented and motivated contributors left the project.
It is really sad (if not tragic) that a talented engineer, with a lot of technical knowledge and experience, annihilates all of that by being unable to work with other people, and by refusing to take advice and learn.
As you all know, Nico now has his own fork (aka flashrom-stable) and I had some hope that he will focus on that and we will get back to normal, peaceful and constructive work. Unfortunately, Nico decided to make a comeback, and started adding himself to flashrom patches and commenting on patches.
I do not accept bullying and lying, and I don't want this in the flashrom community. No amount of technical expertise justifies bullying other people and lying in public. This is my firm position.
Thank you guys for everything
On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:56:53AM +1000, Anastasia Klimchuk wrote:
Dear flashrom community,
I have just banned Nico Huber from flashrom gerrit and mailing list. This is a result of what was happening on flashrom during the last ~3 years. Nico has a long track record of bullying other developers, attacking people on public channels (Gerrit and mailing list), writing long toxic comments which blocked other people's work, and lying in all public channels. During recent years, Nico was the reason why several talented and motivated contributors left the project.
It is really sad (if not tragic) that a talented engineer, with a lot of technical knowledge and experience, annihilates all of that by being unable to work with other people, and by refusing to take advice and learn.
As you all know, Nico now has his own fork (aka flashrom-stable) and I had some hope that he will focus on that and we will get back to normal, peaceful and constructive work. Unfortunately, Nico decided to make a comeback, and started adding himself to flashrom patches and commenting on patches.
I do not accept bullying and lying, and I don't want this in the flashrom community. No amount of technical expertise justifies bullying other people and lying in public. This is my firm position.
Which committee, which hopefully consisted of at least a majority of at least curently active flashrom developers, decided this, when and how?
Luc Verhaegen.
On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 03:32:06AM +0200, Luc Verhaegen via flashrom wrote:
On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:56:53AM +1000, Anastasia Klimchuk wrote:
Dear flashrom community,
I have just banned Nico Huber from flashrom gerrit and mailing list. This is a result of what was happening on flashrom during the last ~3 years. Nico has a long track record of bullying other developers, attacking people on public channels (Gerrit and mailing list), writing long toxic comments which blocked other people's work, and lying in all public channels. During recent years, Nico was the reason why several talented and motivated contributors left the project.
It is really sad (if not tragic) that a talented engineer, with a lot of technical knowledge and experience, annihilates all of that by being unable to work with other people, and by refusing to take advice and learn.
As you all know, Nico now has his own fork (aka flashrom-stable) and I had some hope that he will focus on that and we will get back to normal, peaceful and constructive work. Unfortunately, Nico decided to make a comeback, and started adding himself to flashrom patches and commenting on patches.
I do not accept bullying and lying, and I don't want this in the flashrom community. No amount of technical expertise justifies bullying other people and lying in public. This is my firm position.
Which committee, which hopefully consisted of at least a majority of at least curently active flashrom developers, decided this, when and how?
Aha, 60+h on still no reply, as expected. Time to go poke at some details then.
Luc Verhaegen.
On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:56:53AM +1000, Anastasia Klimchuk wrote:
Dear flashrom community,
I have just banned Nico Huber from flashrom gerrit and mailing list.
"I"?
This is a result of what was happening on flashrom during the last ~3 years. Nico has a long track record of bullying other developers, attacking people on public channels (Gerrit and mailing list), writing long toxic comments which blocked other people's work, and lying in all public channels. During recent years, Nico was the reason why several talented and motivated contributors left the project.
Feel free to detail all these events.
It is really sad (if not tragic) that a talented engineer, with a lot of technical knowledge and experience, annihilates all of that by being unable to work with other people, and by refusing to take advice and learn.
Ah, yes, Nico does have actual technical knowledge and a lot of experience with flashrom, especially since he has been involved with flashrom for a long, long time.
Long before google started caring anyway, and sent out some generalist with none of what Nico has been bringing to the party for all that time, who then promptly declared herself project leader with little prior history.
As you all know, Nico now has his own fork (aka flashrom-stable) and I had some hope that he will focus on that and we will get back to normal, peaceful and constructive work. Unfortunately, Nico decided to make a comeback, and started adding himself to flashrom patches and commenting on patches.
Working on flashrom patches, and commenting on them is what he has been doing since long before you even knew what flashrom was.
And one could argue that him forking flashrom was something he felt necessary given what you have been working on or towards over the last 2-3 years.
I do not accept bullying and lying, and I don't want this in the flashrom community.
"I", and "I" being imposed on a "community". Interesting.
And singlehandedly removing access to project resources could be construed as bullying as well.
No amount of technical expertise justifies bullying other people and lying in public. This is my firm position.
"_My_ firm postition".
Also, calling it your "firm position" does not lessen the insecurity you are displaying here.
Thank you guys for everything
Yes, thank Nico for sticking with flashrom for so long, and for actually helping users with actual questions on both irc and email since basically forever.
Thank you Anastasia, for holding weekly meetings on a project with limited mailing list activity and limited patch flow. I am sure that they were time well spent that could not have been spent on say, writing acual code, actually helping users, etc.
Luc Verhaegen.
Hi Luc, I haven't really followed what's been going on at flashrom due to some personal issues of my own, but my understanding, and note that I could be mistaken about some things, follows:
There was a decision made to fork the original flashrom to flashrom-stable. My understanding is that Nico was leaving the flashrom fork to maintain flashrom-stable.
At that point, in my opinion, Nico has somewhat divorced himself from the original flashrom project. I (in a probably naive fashion) wouldn't expect Ubuntu maintainers to go be complaining about how debian is run, for example. They have their own distro to maintain, so they can change what they want to be how they want in their own distro.
As far as any issues between the two flashrom forks, I again haven't followed this, but it seems like there might have been continuing conflicts.
Because of this, it doesn't seem *completely* unreasonable to remove the head of a competing fork from working on, commenting on, or having anything to do with the original fork. This can be (and was) decided by the leadership of the original fork.
There is no further discussion owed to you about this, whether you like it or not. If you want to work with Nico on the flashrom-stable fork, you're more than welcome to do so.
What you're not welcome to do is what you're doing now. Whether or not you like the decision that was made, you need to be respectful to other community members on the mailing list.
In my opinion, the comments you are making towards Anastasia are, at the very least, close to violating the code of conduct. If it were up to me, I'd say that you had already crossed that line and that consequences of your behavior shouldn't be surprising if and/or when they occur.
I can understand that you can feel upset about things that are happening in the communities, but knowing all of the people involved, I can assure you that these sorts of issues are not taken lightly, quickly, or without thought.
Maybe consider that there *might* be reasons that further discussion about what's going on can't or shouldn't take place in the public. Think about what those reasons might be. Again we're all part of the open source community, and would prefer to do things in the open, so if that's not happening, maybe there's a reason.
Respectfully, Martin
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 3:00 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom flashrom@flashrom.org wrote:
On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:56:53AM +1000, Anastasia Klimchuk wrote:
Dear flashrom community,
I have just banned Nico Huber from flashrom gerrit and mailing list.
"I"?
This is a result of what was happening on flashrom during the last ~3 years. Nico has a long track record of bullying other developers, attacking people on public channels (Gerrit and mailing list), writing long toxic comments which blocked other people's work, and lying in all public channels. During recent years, Nico was the reason why several talented and motivated contributors left the project.
Feel free to detail all these events.
It is really sad (if not tragic) that a talented engineer, with a lot of technical knowledge and experience, annihilates all of that by being unable to work with other people, and by refusing to take advice and learn.
Ah, yes, Nico does have actual technical knowledge and a lot of experience with flashrom, especially since he has been involved with flashrom for a long, long time.
Long before google started caring anyway, and sent out some generalist with none of what Nico has been bringing to the party for all that time, who then promptly declared herself project leader with little prior history.
As you all know, Nico now has his own fork (aka flashrom-stable) and I had some hope that he will focus on that and we will get back to normal, peaceful and constructive work. Unfortunately, Nico decided to make a comeback, and started adding himself to flashrom patches and commenting on patches.
Working on flashrom patches, and commenting on them is what he has been doing since long before you even knew what flashrom was.
And one could argue that him forking flashrom was something he felt necessary given what you have been working on or towards over the last 2-3 years.
I do not accept bullying and lying, and I don't want this in the flashrom community.
"I", and "I" being imposed on a "community". Interesting.
And singlehandedly removing access to project resources could be construed as bullying as well.
No amount of technical expertise justifies bullying other people and lying in public. This is my firm position.
"_My_ firm postition".
Also, calling it your "firm position" does not lessen the insecurity you are displaying here.
Thank you guys for everything
Yes, thank Nico for sticking with flashrom for so long, and for actually helping users with actual questions on both irc and email since basically forever.
Thank you Anastasia, for holding weekly meetings on a project with limited mailing list activity and limited patch flow. I am sure that they were time well spent that could not have been spent on say, writing acual code, actually helping users, etc.
Luc Verhaegen. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 05:21:42PM -0600, Martin L Roth wrote:
Hi Luc, I haven't really followed what's been going on at flashrom due to some personal issues of my own, but my understanding, and note that I could be mistaken about some things, follows:
There was a decision made to fork the original flashrom to flashrom-stable. My understanding is that Nico was leaving the flashrom fork to maintain flashrom-stable.
At that point, in my opinion, Nico has somewhat divorced himself from the original flashrom project. I (in a probably naive fashion) wouldn't expect Ubuntu maintainers to go be complaining about how debian is run, for example. They have their own distro to maintain, so they can change what they want to be how they want in their own distro.
As far as any issues between the two flashrom forks, I again haven't followed this, but it seems like there might have been continuing conflicts.
Because of this, it doesn't seem *completely* unreasonable to remove the head of a competing fork from working on, commenting on, or having anything to do with the original fork. This can be (and was) decided by the leadership of the original fork.
"The leadership" being...
There is no further discussion owed to you about this, whether you like it or not. If you want to work with Nico on the flashrom-stable fork, you're more than welcome to do so.
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially when "bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have happened.
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
What you're not welcome to do is what you're doing now. Whether or not you like the decision that was made, you need to be respectful to other community members on the mailing list.
In my opinion, the comments you are making towards Anastasia are, at the very least, close to violating the code of conduct. If it were up to me, I'd say that you had already crossed that line and that consequences of your behavior shouldn't be surprising if and/or when they occur.
I can understand that you can feel upset about things that are happening in the communities, but knowing all of the people involved, I can assure you that these sorts of issues are not taken lightly, quickly, or without thought.
Maybe consider that there *might* be reasons that further discussion about what's going on can't or shouldn't take place in the public. Think about what those reasons might be. Again we're all part of the open source community, and would prefer to do things in the open, so if that's not happening, maybe there's a reason.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning for and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Luc Verhaegen.
Luc,
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 05:21:42PM -0600, Martin L Roth wrote:
Hi Luc, I haven't really followed what's been going on at flashrom due to some
personal
issues of my own, but my understanding, and note that I could be mistaken about some things, follows:
There was a decision made to fork the original flashrom to
flashrom-stable.
My understanding is that Nico was leaving the flashrom fork to maintain flashrom-stable.
At that point, in my opinion, Nico has somewhat divorced himself from the original flashrom project. I (in a probably naive fashion) wouldn't expect Ubuntu maintainers to go be complaining about how debian is run, for example. They have their own distro to maintain, so they can change what they want to be how they want in their own distro.
As far as any issues between the two flashrom forks, I again haven't followed this, but it seems like there might have been continuing conflicts.
Because of this, it doesn't seem *completely* unreasonable to remove the head of a competing fork from working on, commenting on, or having anything to do with the original fork. This can be (and was) decided by the leadership of the original
fork.
"The leadership" being...
I know you have not really been actively contributing a whole lot of code in the last few years, so you probably didn't really follow the project along much and missed the announcement here. Anastasia was formally announced as leader of the flashrom project last month after reaching out to all meaningful, active contributors and having a conversation with each of them individually.
There is no further discussion owed to you about this, whether you like it or not. If you want to work with Nico on the flashrom-stable fork, you're more than welcome to do so.
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially when "bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have happened.
Where did you get that idea?
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
The decision was not made in a vacuum.
What you're not welcome to do is what you're doing now. Whether or not you like the decision that was made, you need to be respectful to other community members on the mailing list.
In my opinion, the comments you are making towards Anastasia are, at the very least, close to violating the code of conduct. If it were up to me, I'd say that you had already crossed that line and that consequences of your behavior shouldn't be surprising if and/or when they occur.
I can understand that you can feel upset about things that are happening in the communities, but knowing all of the people involved, I can assure you that these sorts of issues are not taken lightly, quickly, or without thought.
Maybe consider that there *might* be reasons that further discussion about what's going on can't or shouldn't take place in the public. Think about what those reasons might be. Again we're all part of the open source community, and would prefer to do things in the open, so if that's not happening, maybe there's a reason.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning for and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
Again, you might have missed the last few years of history of this project. Nico has formally resigned from the project in 2020. It is time to move on.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Conspiracy theories here we come. Really, Luc?
Luc Verhaegen. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 06:04:13PM -0700, Stefan Reinauer wrote:
Luc,
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
"The leadership" being...
I know you have not really been actively contributing a whole lot of code in the last few years, so you probably didn't really follow the project along much and missed the announcement here. Anastasia was formally announced as leader of the flashrom project last month after reaching out to all meaningful, active contributors and having a conversation with each of them individually.
So a supreme leader was needed for this small project then?
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially when "bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have happened.
Where did you get that idea?
Aha. No details needed then for former contributors, the supreme generalist leader has decided, that's all we need to know.
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
The decision was not made in a vacuum.
By which you imply that this decision was taken by Anastasia on her own, with her being supreme leader and all.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning for and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
Again, you might have missed the last few years of history of this project. Nico has formally resigned from the project in 2020. It is time to move on.
Yes, time to move on indeed.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Conspiracy theories here we come. Really, Luc?
So you went and confirmed that this was the decision of a single person, who felt legitimized by being proclaimed to be the supreme leader, even though this persons code contributions were only superficial, and the interest of this person in this project has singularily been due to being tasked by her employer to do so... And it just happens to be the same employer you work for, and that Thomas used to work for...
And then you try to claim that this a comspiracy theory to muffle any further dissent?
Really Stefan?
Luc Verhaegen.
OK, Is this healthy?
On Wed, 24 May 2023 at 17:25, Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 06:04:13PM -0700, Stefan Reinauer wrote:
Luc,
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
"The leadership" being...
I know you have not really been actively contributing a whole lot of code in the last few years, so you probably didn't really follow the project along much and missed the announcement here. Anastasia was formally announced as leader of the flashrom project last month after reaching out to all meaningful, active contributors and having a conversation with
each
of them individually.
So a supreme leader was needed for this small project then?
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially
when
"bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have happened.
Where did you get that idea?
Aha. No details needed then for former contributors, the supreme generalist leader has decided, that's all we need to know.
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
The decision was not made in a vacuum.
By which you imply that this decision was taken by Anastasia on her own, with her being supreme leader and all.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning for and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
Again, you might have missed the last few years of history of this
project.
Nico has formally resigned from the project in 2020. It is time to move
on.
Yes, time to move on indeed.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Conspiracy theories here we come. Really, Luc?
So you went and confirmed that this was the decision of a single person, who felt legitimized by being proclaimed to be the supreme leader, even though this persons code contributions were only superficial, and the interest of this person in this project has singularily been due to being tasked by her employer to do so... And it just happens to be the same employer you work for, and that Thomas used to work for...
And then you try to claim that this a comspiracy theory to muffle any further dissent?
Really Stefan?
Luc Verhaegen. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
What's unhealthy is the attitude on both sides. This project is supposed to be an Open Source project, where anyone's contribution is valued based on the patch's merit. Regardless of the author's personal belief or stance. I've actually been reading the mailing list for the last 10 years. Banning someone because of allegations of hurting someone's feelings has no merit.
Signed-off-by: Sean Nelson audiohacked@gmail.com
On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 3:47 AM Edward O'Callaghan via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
OK, Is this healthy?
On Wed, 24 May 2023 at 17:25, Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 06:04:13PM -0700, Stefan Reinauer wrote:
Luc,
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
"The leadership" being...
I know you have not really been actively contributing a whole lot of
code
in the last few years, so you probably didn't really follow the project along much and missed the announcement here. Anastasia was formally announced as leader of the flashrom project last month after reaching
out
to all meaningful, active contributors and having a conversation with
each
of them individually.
So a supreme leader was needed for this small project then?
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially
when
"bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have
happened.
Where did you get that idea?
Aha. No details needed then for former contributors, the supreme generalist leader has decided, that's all we need to know.
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
The decision was not made in a vacuum.
By which you imply that this decision was taken by Anastasia on her own, with her being supreme leader and all.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning
for
and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
Again, you might have missed the last few years of history of this
project.
Nico has formally resigned from the project in 2020. It is time to move
on.
Yes, time to move on indeed.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Conspiracy theories here we come. Really, Luc?
So you went and confirmed that this was the decision of a single person, who felt legitimized by being proclaimed to be the supreme leader, even though this persons code contributions were only superficial, and the interest of this person in this project has singularily been due to being tasked by her employer to do so... And it just happens to be the same employer you work for, and that Thomas used to work for...
And then you try to claim that this a comspiracy theory to muffle any further dissent?
Really Stefan?
Luc Verhaegen. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
Because of the threat of legal action from one party involved against another party, all communication about this has been stopped.
Ceasing communication when someone threatens legal action is pretty normal.
Due to this, do not expect any further communication on this matter from anyone in leadership role in the flashrom project.
If there was a desire for clear communication, the threat of legal action eliminated that possibility. There's a reason that the standard answer from everyone is "I can't comment about the subject due to ongoing litigation." Anything that's said from this point on could end up in court.
In this case, as far as I know, nothing has actually been filed, but just the possibility of having a lawsuit filed has made sure that nobody is going to discuss anything further.
I hope you can understand the situation and why nothing more can, or will, be discussed in public.
Thanks for understanding. Martin
On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 3:30 AM Sean Nelson audiohacked@gmail.com wrote:
What's unhealthy is the attitude on both sides. This project is supposed to be an Open Source project, where anyone's contribution is valued based on the patch's merit. Regardless of the author's personal belief or stance. I've actually been reading the mailing list for the last 10 years. Banning someone because of allegations of hurting someone's feelings has no merit.
Signed-off-by: Sean Nelson audiohacked@gmail.com
On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 3:47 AM Edward O'Callaghan via flashrom flashrom@flashrom.org wrote:
OK, Is this healthy?
On Wed, 24 May 2023 at 17:25, Luc Verhaegen via flashrom flashrom@flashrom.org wrote:
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 06:04:13PM -0700, Stefan Reinauer wrote:
Luc,
On Tue, May 23, 2023 at 4:43 PM Luc Verhaegen via flashrom < flashrom@flashrom.org> wrote:
"The leadership" being...
I know you have not really been actively contributing a whole lot of code in the last few years, so you probably didn't really follow the project along much and missed the announcement here. Anastasia was formally announced as leader of the flashrom project last month after reaching out to all meaningful, active contributors and having a conversation with each of them individually.
So a supreme leader was needed for this small project then?
As someone who wrote a good chunk of the board_enable code, and spent several years helping actual users flash bioses on their machines directly, i am owed a complete and detailed explanation, especially when "bullying" and "lying" is publicly and loudly claimed to have happened.
Where did you get that idea?
Aha. No details needed then for former contributors, the supreme generalist leader has decided, that's all we need to know.
I also expect there to be more than one person deciding this.
The decision was not made in a vacuum.
By which you imply that this decision was taken by Anastasia on her own, with her being supreme leader and all.
If such actions are taken publicly, and if such claims are made publicly, about one of the people with the longest sustained trackrecords of flashrom contributions, then the detailed reasoning for and the quorum backing such actions needs to be public as well.
All i see is an ad hominem attack, aided by the abuse of admin access, by one person, against one of the projects mainstays.
Again, you might have missed the last few years of history of this project. Nico has formally resigned from the project in 2020. It is time to move on.
Yes, time to move on indeed.
And there seems to be nothing but corporate affiliation, that allows this to happen. A meritocracy this is not.
Conspiracy theories here we come. Really, Luc?
So you went and confirmed that this was the decision of a single person, who felt legitimized by being proclaimed to be the supreme leader, even though this persons code contributions were only superficial, and the interest of this person in this project has singularily been due to being tasked by her employer to do so... And it just happens to be the same employer you work for, and that Thomas used to work for...
And then you try to claim that this a comspiracy theory to muffle any further dissent?
Really Stefan?
Luc Verhaegen. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
Hello everyone,
I have the urge to respond to this thread immediately and in detail. However, I am aware that rushing a response will not lead to the best response I can give.
The current situation in the broader flashrom ecosystem (regardless of branch name and maintainership) has been developing in a way that makes me worried. The people involved in the broader flashrom ecosystem have a very diverse set of opinions about leadership, management (yes, different from leadership), code review processes, code quality, desired/doable level of activity, preferred medium of communication, preferred style of communication, and last but not least the question of whether code quality is more important than social conformity. There is no common division about all those issues between parts of the community, but rather the factions depend on the issue at hand.
Please, everyone, before sending further emails about the current issue, can we write those emails but not send them? I have written quite a few emails regarding community issues in the past , but did not send them and it often was better not to have sent those emails. No, I will not turn on mailing list emergency moderation. Instead I'm pleading with all of you: Take a deep breath, write something down, take a good night's sleep, do something fun and unrelated.
We do have some processes in place to handle situations like this, and the handling will be transparent and open and fair and designed to minimize further damage and allow participants to heal (all these goals are what I strive for). It will take time, though. Please give us all the necessary time.
Thank you!
I wish you all a peaceful week.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
On Wed, May 24, 2023 at 09:25:20AM +0200, Luc Verhaegen via flashrom wrote:
And it just happens to be the same employer you work for, and that Thomas used to work for...
I of course meant Martin Roth here, not Thomas.
Luc Verhaegen.
Hi,
I am very disappointed in how this has been handled and communicated. It simply looks awful and like Anastasia might actually be the one bullying and lying. I can't know if that's true or not and how much both sides contributed to this escalation but the communication is quite embarrassing for anybody who wants to lead any project in any case. That especially includes Martin's excuses for shutting down any discussion (seriously, have you even read that announcement and thought about how it looks to a neutral entity?).
Without even a hint of evidence or reference, the outside observer's perception is horrendous. I have read this thread while constantly shaking my head. Transparency is key to gain (or hold) any trust in such situation but exactly the opposite has been shown. It's really a shame and I am glad it doesn't really concern me but I had to publicly write down my 2ct.
Thanks for your feedback Stefan. I had hoped that this would end, and had along discussion with Nico regarding that earlier today.
That said, it sounds like you're not going to let the drama go away.
Without having seen the evidence, I'm willing to accept that a lot of the issues are due to cultural differences and miscommunication. An email was received which apparently was perceived as a legal threat. It was apparently not meant that way, but regardless of intent, that's how it was received.
None of that is disputed by any of the parties involved, which you of course can verify with any of the involved people.
I'm working to keep the drama down to a minimum. Carl-Daniel has started his wishes as well.
If you're not actively trying to stir things up, maybe give things a bit of time to come to a resolution.
Thanks again for understanding. Martin
On Thu, May 25, 2023 at 16:34 Stefan Tauner stefan.tauner@gmx.at wrote:
Hi,
I am very disappointed in how this has been handled and communicated. It simply looks awful and like Anastasia might actually be the one bullying and lying. I can't know if that's true or not and how much both sides contributed to this escalation but the communication is quite embarrassing for anybody who wants to lead any project in any case. That especially includes Martin's excuses for shutting down any discussion (seriously, have you even read that announcement and thought about how it looks to a neutral entity?).
Without even a hint of evidence or reference, the outside observer's perception is horrendous. I have read this thread while constantly shaking my head. Transparency is key to gain (or hold) any trust in such situation but exactly the opposite has been shown. It's really a shame and I am glad it doesn't really concern me but I had to publicly write down my 2ct.
-- Kind regards/Mit freundlichen Grüßen, Stefan Tauner _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
On Thu, 25 May 2023 17:14:23 -0600 Martin L Roth gaumless@gmail.com wrote:
That said, it sounds like you're not going to let the drama go away.
Please stop with this passive aggressiveness. I have said what I had to say because I stumbled about this "news" by accident and although I have not contributed in any meaningful way for years, as a previous maintainer who has invested thousands of hours I am still somewhat emotionally bound to the project and simply had to speak up - if at all to give some feedback that very obviously is needed - in the hope that it triggers some reflection. I read "keeping the drama down" as sweeping the problem under the carpet and that's exactly what I have criticized. There is nothing more for me to say at this point.
Hi folks,
Le Fri 26 May 23, 11:49, Stefan Tauner a écrit :
On Thu, 25 May 2023 17:14:23 -0600 Martin L Roth gaumless@gmail.com wrote:
That said, it sounds like you're not going to let the drama go away.
Please stop with this passive aggressiveness. I have said what I had to say because I stumbled about this "news" by accident and although I have not contributed in any meaningful way for years, as a previous maintainer who has invested thousands of hours I am still somewhat emotionally bound to the project and simply had to speak up - if at all to give some feedback that very obviously is needed - in the hope that it triggers some reflection. I read "keeping the drama down" as sweeping the problem under the carpet and that's exactly what I have criticized. There is nothing more for me to say at this point.
Even though I've never been a very active contributor to flashrom, I've been keeping an eye on the mailing list every now and then. When catching up today, I was very surprised to read Anastasia's email and follow-up exchanges.
While I have nothing to say about the decision itself, I need to emphasis that communication around it feels very opaque and lacks any kind of reference besides vague statements. This kind of drastic decision can only be perceived as acceptable if it comes with precise and documented accounts of related wrong-doings as well as a clear account of how the decision was taken and by whom. Even the title of the thread is very misleading.
So I wanted to express my disappointment and hope that such mistakes will not happen again in the future. I also hope that members of the community who were involved in this decision and the communication around it realize how it was perceived by other members of the community who are not part of these circles.
This is not meant to be an attack on the project's leadership or the legitimacy of the decision that was taken, just feedback about how the communication around it feels from a semi-external point of view.
All the best,
Paul
Stefan Tauner stefan.tauner@gmx.at writes:
I am very disappointed in how this has been handled and communicated.
I'm here because I maintain the flashrom package in pkgsrc. I find what's happened to be uncomfortable from expectations of good governance -- I'm used to a project steering committee or board, at least for projects of significant size. That's not a statement for or against any party and their past conduct -- it's just a comment about process.
I do not intend to engage, as I haven't and won't be participating other than by packaging.
-
Anastasia Klimchuk -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger -
Edward O'Callaghan -
Greg Troxel -
Luc Verhaegen -
Martin L Roth -
Paul Kocialkowski -
Sean Nelson -
Stefan Reinauer -
Stefan Tauner