# 20th July 2023, 6.00-7.00am UTC+0
Attendees: Stefan, Edward, Anastasia
## Decision summary
* flashrom.org is new, wiki.flashrom.org is old (will be a dedicated post on the ML)
## Agenda
* New website: let's do it right now! * Done: flashrom.org is new, wiki.flashrom.org is old, and old one is locked for editing (no edit button anymore) * one thing left: put a red banner on old wiki which says it is retired and locked for editing * aklm to post news on mailing list * Code of conduct patch [https://review.coreboot.org/c/flashrom/+/76455%5D(https://review.coreboot.or...) * maybe coreboot can help in the beginning? but longer term we need our own.
Hi,
we do have the equivalent of a code of conduct.
No need to create a new one.
https://wiki.flashrom.org/Friendliness
If there is anything that needs fixing, we can fix it. The document above was created with feedback from quite a few people in the neurodivergent community and tries to address the problems they saw with the other common codes if conduct. Flashrom used to be a safe space for neurodivergent people. I would love to keep it that way.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Am 20. Juli 2023 09:43:49 MESZ schrieb Anastasia Klimchuk aklm@chromium.org:
# 20th July 2023, 6.00-7.00am UTC+0
Attendees: Stefan, Edward, Anastasia
## Decision summary
- flashrom.org is new, wiki.flashrom.org is old (will be a dedicated
post on the ML)
## Agenda
- New website: let's do it right now!
- Done: flashrom.org is new, wiki.flashrom.org is old, and old one
is locked for editing (no edit button anymore)
- one thing left: put a red banner on old wiki which says it is
retired and locked for editing
- aklm to post news on mailing list
- Code of conduct patch
[https://review.coreboot.org/c/flashrom/+/76455%5D(https://review.coreboot.or...)
- maybe coreboot can help in the beginning? but longer term we need our
own.
Anastasia. _______________________________________________ flashrom mailing list -- flashrom@flashrom.org To unsubscribe send an email to flashrom-leave@flashrom.org
Carl-Daniel,
Thank you so much for your message! I know you don't post to the mailing list often, I appreciate you took the time to do this!
Of course I want flashrom to be a safe place for everyone. And everyone else wants this too!
You are very welcome to send a patch to convert the Friendliness wiki page to our new sphinx docs, so that it can be added to the new website. You haven't mentioned any specifics in your message: who were the people you worked with, which problems were you solving, and which common codes of conducts were taken as examples. But I am sure you would incorporate all that in your patch. Also of course, please add everyone who is interested to the patch.
Few things I would mention from my side. I was actually looking closely at the Friendliness page recently. It seems unfinished, there is a todo in the middle (sitting there from 2009). Some parts of it belong to the Development guide, and could be updated there, if needed at all. Some other parts can be better placed on the Contacts page. It would be great if you can incorporate all that in your patch. In any case, send a patch, add reviewers and then we will have a look!
About Code of Conduct: this is established and standard terminology, and a project needs one. However the content is in our hands, and this is exactly why there is a patch now under review. People are already reviewing, adding comments, and you are very welcome to add your comments as well.
Hi Anastasia,
thank you for your response. Since there are a few issues orthogonal to each other, I'll split my response into multiple mails to avoid polluting different sub-threads.
Am 23.07.23 um 03:05 schrieb Anastasia Klimchuk:
About Code of Conduct: this is established and standard terminology, and a project needs one. However the content is in our hands, and this is exactly why there is a patch now under review. People are already reviewing, adding comments, and you are very welcome to add your comments as well.
A question of process: Why is the Code of Conduct discussion happening in a code review tool (gerrit)?
Number of participants in various communication channels of flashrom as of now or as of last occurence (some duplicates may be present): Mailing list: 389 subscribers IRC: 89 users Gerrit Code of Conduct patch: 1 author, 6 reviewers (not all of them active in the discussion), 2 people in CC Dev meeting: 3 people
Even if we assume that IRC users are only a subset of mailing list participants and thus don't need to be counted, the discussion in the Code of Conduct patch in Gerrit reaches only ~3% of the flashrom community.
That is a huge problem and should be addressed first. Otherwise this gives a similar impression to referring mankind to the demolition plans on display somewhere in Alpha Centauri (context: Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy).
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Hi Anastasia,
as promised, another email with answers.
Am 23.07.23 um 03:05 schrieb Anastasia Klimchuk:
[...] You are very welcome to send a patch to convert the Friendliness wiki page to our new sphinx docs, so that it can be added to the new website.
Thanks, I'll do that.
Few things I would mention from my side. I was actually looking closely at the Friendliness page recently. It seems unfinished, there is a todo in the middle (sitting there from 2009).
Indeed, the part with the TODO was specified elsewhere in the wiki without the TODO being replaced by a link.
Some parts of it belong to the Development guide, and could be updated there, if needed at all. Some other parts can be better placed on the Contacts page.
The contacts page linked from the bottom of the new main web page returns just a 404 not found. That is probably fixable very quickly, but I'm not well versed in the operation of the new website so I'll leave that to someone else.
It would be great if you can incorporate all that in your patch.
I'd probably split off some parts of it into other patches, if such parts target only semi-related topics.
In any case, send a patch, add reviewers and then we will have a look!
Since "Code of Conduct" has been established as a relatively standard term for something which had many names in the past ("Etiquette","Community Guidelines", even the "Friendliness" wiki page), it probably makes sense to rename the Friendliness page contents as current "Code of Conduct".
I'll send a patch.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
I see. I think commit message to the patch gives an answer to your question, I will copy commit message here just in case you maybe missed it:
For now link to coreboot's one, in the absence of our own.
It is always possible to create our own later, if desired, but meanwhile we can share code of conduct with coreboot. We do have the same servers and infrastructure anyway.
It can take some time to produce our own code of conduct, and yes now we have 3 threads on the mailing list, and maybe we'll have even more. Meanwhile, between today and the time we finish our code of conduct, we can use coreboot's one.
There is no demolition, if you look at the patch it adds a new page and does not remove anything. Also as I said we now have 3 threads on the mailing list. So... I am not entirely sure whether your reference applies. But now I know what your favorite book is :)
Also for anyone who is reading this post and is interested to click the link: here it is, welcome! https://review.coreboot.org/c/flashrom/+/76455
Am 24.07.23 um 15:23 schrieb Anastasia Klimchuk:
I see. I think commit message to the patch gives an answer to your question, I will copy commit message here just in case you maybe missed it:
For now link to coreboot's one, in the absence of our own.
Thanks for quoting the commit message. I fundamentally disagree with the "in absence of our own" statement. We have the friendliness document which serves as a sort of Code of Conduct.
It is always possible to create our own later, if desired, but meanwhile we can share code of conduct with coreboot. We do have the same servers and infrastructure anyway.
It can take some time to produce our own code of conduct, and yes now we have 3 threads on the mailing list, and maybe we'll have even more. Meanwhile, between today and the time we finish our code of conduct, we can use coreboot's one.
Why would we use coreboot's code of conduct as interim solution? You are proposing to establish a new foreign rule immediately (quoting your mail: "today"), and only then discussing what our own rules should be. This is not a pandemic where we need emergency rules now, and a democratic process later. While a FOSS project usually is not a democracy, we should at least try to have an adequate discussion in a medium with a low barrier to entry (which gerrit is not). That process should also consider that people currently on vacation (holiday season in the northern hemisphere right now) or busy with other stuff may need enough time to react.
There is no demolition, if you look at the patch it adds a new page and does not remove anything.
Let me recap from my point of view: 1. Old website gets moved to wiki.flashrom.org, new website has new contents without the existing and active behavioural guidelines. New website has no links to old website and old (moved) website is not findable in Google (checked right now). As such, the old content has essentially disappeared / been removed from visibility. You write "there is no demolition". 2. Old content has been removed from view. You propose adding new content with similar scope. For me, those two actions are semantically related. You write "the patch it adds a new page and does not remove anything".
I think you are sincere and have the desire to help the project flourish. Yet, I experience strong cognitive dissonance when matching your surely positive intentions with your actions. Please help me understand you.
Also as I said we now have 3 threads on the mailing list.
Because I started them. I would have expected you as a project leader to start those mailing list threads with a subject including "code of conduct" or similar.
So... I am not entirely sure whether your reference applies. But now I know what your favorite book is :)
Also for anyone who is reading this post and is interested to click the link: here it is, welcome! https://review.coreboot.org/c/flashrom/+/76455
As stated before, I think the gerrit code review platform is the wrong place to discuss non-code policy.
Regards, Carl-Daniel
Good Day,
We have the friendliness document which serves as a sort of Code of Conduct.
It does not serve though. Code of conduct is meant to protect members of the community from unacceptable behavior, and Friendliness failed to do that.
Friendliness doc definitely has lots of potential and can be upgraded to code of conduct. But this needs more work, which means more time. From your posts, my understanding is that you would like a discussion on the mailing list. Don't know if you count this thread as it, or perhaps you consider creating another one - but either way, some more time for discussion.
Why would we use coreboot's code of conduct as interim solution? You are proposing to establish a new foreign rule immediately (quoting your mail: "today")
Foreign? coreboot is foreign? You can't be serious! :) All of the servers and infrastructure are coreboot's. This mailing list we are talking right now, Gerrit, both old and new websites, etc etc, all hosted on coreboot's servers. There are no "flashrom servers''. And the majority of the people in the community overlap.
and oh, "today" meant "when patch is merged", not an exact date.
Yes, I would like to have an interim solution while we get to the full solution, because having no solution at all is not great.
If it helps you: migrating Friendliness as is to the new website was my first idea, and I started looking at it. I got to my computer with the goal to create a patch to migrate friendliness. But when I inspected the page closely, I realised there are lots of things to do and it's not that trivial. Especially if the goal is to upgrade it to be code of conduct. So instead I created a patch with what you called "interim solution", which probably is an interim solution indeed, and put a commit message explaining that.
I experience strong cognitive dissonance when matching your surely positive intentions with your actions. Please help me understand you.
Yes sure I can help! Yeah, there was no link to the old website. I just added it and sent a patch. I even recall at some point thinking "we need a link to wiki on the menu" but I guess I wasn't on the computer at that time and by the time I got to it I forgot :D
Oh actually I noticed you have an eagle eye for the new website. This is very useful! I already fixed a few things that you shared on the mailing list: like a broken contact link in readme and link to wiki. But, absolutely don't hesitate to send a patch if you notice something to fix. That would be very helpful. https://www.flashrom.org/how_to_add_docs.html
Because I started them. I would have expected you as a project leader to start those mailing list threads with a subject including "code of conduct" or similar.
A reminder: you learned about what is happening from the mailing list. From *my* post on this mailing list ;) That's the whole point of sending meeting notes to the mailing list: everyone can read, everyone who is interested can react.
Of course you can create new threads! You are welcome to create new threads, with any important topics.
I think the gerrit code review platform is the wrong place to discuss non-code policy.
I assume by saying "discuss" you mean people reacting and posting/commenting. I see in the gerrit patch there are 6 people actually discussing (adding comments). In the mailing list, it's just us two talking. As for reading: everyone can do reading, all the 389 subscribers are reading. And I posted the gerrit link twice, for anyone interested. In Gerrit: you can read all comments without even an account in gerrit. Even our parents and kids can read those comments. And maybe they do it right now :)
-
Anastasia Klimchuk -
Carl-Daniel Hailfinger