RE: Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPL Issue

[Stefan de Konink]

Hello all,

I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After 
reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot 
Utility.

http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip

But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.


Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?


Greetings,

Stefan de Konink

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPL Issue

[Adam Sulmicki]

> I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> Utility.
>
> http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
>
> But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
>
> Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?

fyi, you can get to this page from :

	http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343

you can do:
	wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
	unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
  	strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux

it gives you stuff like :

_linuxbios_versionR
_linuxbios_extra_versionX
_linuxbios_build`
_linuxbios_compile_timef
_linuxbios_compile_byp
_linuxbios_compile_hostv
_linuxbios_compile_domainz
_linuxbios_compiler~
_linuxbios_linker
_linuxbios_assembler


etc, etc.

also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps something to
inquire at.

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPL Issue

[Matt Jarvis]

This wouldn't surprise me. Via did the same with the Waste sources, 
built their own version for the PadlockSL utility without mention of the 
fact it was GPL Waste source based. They withdrew the code from their 
webpage when it was put to them that it was a GPL infringement. They 
dont seem to understand the concept of the GPL very well.


Adam Sulmicki wrote:
> > I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> > reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> > Utility.
> >
> > http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> >
> > But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> > grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
> >
> > Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?
>
> fyi, you can get to this page from :
>
> http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343
>
> you can do:
>   wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
>   unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
>   strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux
>
> it gives you stuff like :
>
> _linuxbios_versionR
> _linuxbios_extra_versionX
> _linuxbios_build`
> _linuxbios_compile_timef
> _linuxbios_compile_byp
> _linuxbios_compile_hostv
> _linuxbios_compile_domainz
> _linuxbios_compiler~
> _linuxbios_linker
> _linuxbios_assembler
>
> etc, etc.
>
> also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps something to
> inquire at.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPL Issue

[Stefan de Konink]

Today I discussed it with a collegue of me. He said it is the way you
bring this to VIA, if there is any force, like they do when you infridge
their patents, it just disappears from their website.
At the moment they claim to give a OEM (or a end user) source code (one C
file with compile instructions for VC++ 1.5 (!)).
Probably someone should gently point out that what they give is object
code. And with the question if the want to participate in the LinuxBIOS
code, source for the VGA initialisation for example :)

Two months ago I had basically the same problem with Acer (BenQ) about
their AccessPoints basically they did the same thing as Linksys. With the
new products they got Wind River...
The FSF coundn't do anything because there was no link to find except for
the Linux Kernel.

So I presume the EPIA-toyers like the FastBios product the same als the
LinuxBIOS project. Though the LinuxBIOS claims to be unstable for the
board (sounds scary) while 'their' VIA building provides a 'working'
package based on LinuxBIOS.

Is anybody of the developers group able to take some action?


Stefan

On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Matt Jarvis wrote:
> This wouldn't surprise me. Via did the same with the Waste sources,
> built their own version for the PadlockSL utility without mention of the
> fact it was GPL Waste source based. They withdrew the code from their
> webpage when it was put to them that it was a GPL infringement. They
> dont seem to understand the concept of the GPL very well.
>
> Adam Sulmicki wrote:
> > > I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> > > reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> > > Utility.
> > >
> > > http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > >
> > > But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> > > grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
> > >
> > > Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?
> >
> > fyi, you can get to this page from :
> >
> > http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343
> >
> > you can do:
> >   wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> >   unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> >   strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux
> >
> > it gives you stuff like :
> >
> > _linuxbios_versionR
> > _linuxbios_extra_versionX
> > _linuxbios_build`
> > _linuxbios_compile_timef
> > _linuxbios_compile_byp
> > _linuxbios_compile_hostv
> > _linuxbios_compile_domainz
> > _linuxbios_compiler~
> > _linuxbios_linker
> > _linuxbios_assembler
> >
> > etc, etc.
> >
> > also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps something to
> > inquire at.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxbios mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
>
> This email is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
> addressee(s). It may contain personal and confidential information and
> as such may be protected by the Data Protection Act 1998. If this email
> has come to you in error you must take no action based on it, nor must
> you copy or show it to anyone; please reply to this email and highlight
> the error.
>
> Any views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the
> author, and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
>
> Although we have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments
> are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computer
> practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPLIssue

[Larry Matter]

I asked about this and this is the reply I got:

  After checking with our engineers, we found the source code of VIA Fast
boot ROM
does not contain the GPL source code.
  Only one structure's members definitions are the same as the Linux BIOS.
The
remaining parts are not.
  We think it doesn't break the GPL.

Larry
> Today I discussed it with a collegue of me. He said it is the way you
> bring this to VIA, if there is any force, like they do when you infridge
> their patents, it just disappears from their website.
> At the moment they claim to give a OEM (or a end user) source code (one C
> file with compile instructions for VC++ 1.5 (!)).
> Probably someone should gently point out that what they give is object
> code. And with the question if the want to participate in the LinuxBIOS
> code, source for the VGA initialisation for example :)
>
> Two months ago I had basically the same problem with Acer (BenQ) about
> their AccessPoints basically they did the same thing as Linksys. With the
> new products they got Wind River...
> The FSF coundn't do anything because there was no link to find except for
> the Linux Kernel.
>
> So I presume the EPIA-toyers like the FastBios product the same als the
> LinuxBIOS project. Though the LinuxBIOS claims to be unstable for the
> board (sounds scary) while 'their' VIA building provides a 'working'
> package based on LinuxBIOS.
>
> Is anybody of the developers group able to take some action?
>
> Stefan
>
> On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Matt Jarvis wrote:
> > This wouldn't surprise me. Via did the same with the Waste sources,
> > built their own version for the PadlockSL utility without mention of the
> > fact it was GPL Waste source based. They withdrew the code from their
> > webpage when it was put to them that it was a GPL infringement. They
> > dont seem to understand the concept of the GPL very well.
> >
> > Adam Sulmicki wrote:
> > > > I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> > > > reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> > > > Utility.
> > > >
> > > > http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > >
> > > > But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> > > > grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
> > > >
> > > > Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?
> > >
> > > fyi, you can get to this page from :
> > >
> > > http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343
> > >
> > > you can do:
> > >   wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > >   unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > >   strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux
> > >
> > > it gives you stuff like :
> > >
> > > _linuxbios_versionR
> > > _linuxbios_extra_versionX
> > > _linuxbios_build`
> > > _linuxbios_compile_timef
> > > _linuxbios_compile_byp
> > > _linuxbios_compile_hostv
> > > _linuxbios_compile_domainz
> > > _linuxbios_compiler~
> > > _linuxbios_linker
> > > _linuxbios_assembler
> > >
> > > etc, etc.
> > >
> > > also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps
> > > something to
> > > inquire at.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Linuxbios mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
> >
> > This email is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
> > addressee(s). It may contain personal and confidential information and
> > as such may be protected by the Data Protection Act 1998. If this email
> > has come to you in error you must take no action based on it, nor must
> > you copy or show it to anyone; please reply to this email and highlight
> > the error.
> >
> > Any views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the
> > author, and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
> >
> > Although we have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments
> > are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computer
> > practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPLIssue

[Stefan de Konink]

Do you agree with them?

My understanding of the GPL is, if you extend a program or use an other
GPL program you must license it as GPL. That is probably also true for
using the same member definitions. imho

Stefan


ps. next to that I find it strange why they even mention FreeBIOS in their
bios... though I hope they open their code anyway.

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Larry Matter wrote:
> I asked about this and this is the reply I got:
>
> After checking with our engineers, we found the source code of VIA Fast
> boot ROM
> does not contain the GPL source code.
>   Only one structure's members definitions are the same as the Linux BIOS.
> The
> remaining parts are not.
>   We think it doesn't break the GPL.
>
> Larry
> > Today I discussed it with a collegue of me. He said it is the way you
> > bring this to VIA, if there is any force, like they do when you infridge
> > their patents, it just disappears from their website.
> > At the moment they claim to give a OEM (or a end user) source code (one C
> > file with compile instructions for VC++ 1.5 (!)).
> > Probably someone should gently point out that what they give is object
> > code. And with the question if the want to participate in the LinuxBIOS
> > code, source for the VGA initialisation for example :)
> >
> > Two months ago I had basically the same problem with Acer (BenQ) about
> > their AccessPoints basically they did the same thing as Linksys. With the
> > new products they got Wind River...
> > The FSF coundn't do anything because there was no link to find except for
> > the Linux Kernel.
> >
> > So I presume the EPIA-toyers like the FastBios product the same als the
> > LinuxBIOS project. Though the LinuxBIOS claims to be unstable for the
> > board (sounds scary) while 'their' VIA building provides a 'working'
> > package based on LinuxBIOS.
> >
> > Is anybody of the developers group able to take some action?
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Matt Jarvis wrote:
> > > This wouldn't surprise me. Via did the same with the Waste sources,
> > > built their own version for the PadlockSL utility without mention of the
> > > fact it was GPL Waste source based. They withdrew the code from their
> > > webpage when it was put to them that it was a GPL infringement. They
> > > dont seem to understand the concept of the GPL very well.
> > >
> > > Adam Sulmicki wrote:
> > > > > I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> > > > > reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> > > > > Utility.
> > > > >
> > > > > http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > > >
> > > > > But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> > > > > grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
> > > > >
> > > > > Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?
> > > >
> > > > fyi, you can get to this page from :
> > > >
> > > > http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343
> > > >
> > > > you can do:
> > > >   wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > >   unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > >   strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux
> > > >
> > > > it gives you stuff like :
> > > >
> > > > _linuxbios_versionR
> > > > _linuxbios_extra_versionX
> > > > _linuxbios_build`
> > > > _linuxbios_compile_timef
> > > > _linuxbios_compile_byp
> > > > _linuxbios_compile_hostv
> > > > _linuxbios_compile_domainz
> > > > _linuxbios_compiler~
> > > > _linuxbios_linker
> > > > _linuxbios_assembler
> > > >
> > > > etc, etc.
> > > >
> > > > also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps
> > > > something to
> > > > inquire at.
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Linuxbios mailing list
> > > > [e-mail]
> > > > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
> > >
> > > This email is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
> > > addressee(s). It may contain personal and confidential information and
> > > as such may be protected by the Data Protection Act 1998. If this email
> > > has come to you in error you must take no action based on it, nor must
> > > you copy or show it to anyone; please reply to this email and highlight
> > > the error.
> > >
> > > Any views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the
> > > author, and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
> > >
> > > Although we have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments
> > > are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computer
> > > practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxbios mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPLIssue

[Hendricks David W.]

Does someone want to write a nice elaborate letter to the FSF to see if 
there's a genuine GPL violation going on here?

On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Stefan de Konink wrote:
> Do you agree with them?
>
> My understanding of the GPL is, if you extend a program or use an other
> GPL program you must license it as GPL. That is probably also true for
> using the same member definitions. imho
>
> Stefan
>
> ps. next to that I find it strange why they even mention FreeBIOS in their
> bios... though I hope they open their code anyway.
>
> On Thu, 24 Jun 2004, Larry Matter wrote:
> > I asked about this and this is the reply I got:
> >
> > After checking with our engineers, we found the source code of VIA Fast
> > boot ROM
> > does not contain the GPL source code.
> >   Only one structure's members definitions are the same as the Linux BIOS.
> > The
> > remaining parts are not.
> >   We think it doesn't break the GPL.
> >
> > Larry
> > > Today I discussed it with a collegue of me. He said it is the way you
> > > bring this to VIA, if there is any force, like they do when you infridge
> > > their patents, it just disappears from their website.
> > > At the moment they claim to give a OEM (or a end user) source code (one C
> > > file with compile instructions for VC++ 1.5 (!)).
> > > Probably someone should gently point out that what they give is object
> > > code. And with the question if the want to participate in the LinuxBIOS
> > > code, source for the VGA initialisation for example :)
> > >
> > > Two months ago I had basically the same problem with Acer (BenQ) about
> > > their AccessPoints basically they did the same thing as Linksys. With the
> > > new products they got Wind River...
> > > The FSF coundn't do anything because there was no link to find except for
> > > the Linux Kernel.
> > >
> > > So I presume the EPIA-toyers like the FastBios product the same als the
> > > LinuxBIOS project. Though the LinuxBIOS claims to be unstable for the
> > > board (sounds scary) while 'their' VIA building provides a 'working'
> > > package based on LinuxBIOS.
> > >
> > > Is anybody of the developers group able to take some action?
> > >
> > > Stefan
> > >
> > > On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Matt Jarvis wrote:
> > > > This wouldn't surprise me. Via did the same with the Waste sources,
> > > > built their own version for the PadlockSL utility without mention of the
> > > > fact it was GPL Waste source based. They withdrew the code from their
> > > > webpage when it was put to them that it was a GPL infringement. They
> > > > dont seem to understand the concept of the GPL very well.
> > > >
> > > > Adam Sulmicki wrote:
> > > > > > I'm trying to boot from the CF reader on the VIA Epia platform. After
> > > > > > reading forums and mailinglist this could be possible by the FastBoot
> > > > > > Utility.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > > > >
> > > > > > But I was a bit surpriced what I found in there...
> > > > > > grep linux `find` and look at the 'loader*.obj'-files.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Can somebody confirm this is _not_ distributed GPL code as a binary?
> > > > >
> > > > > fyi, you can get to this page from :
> > > > >
> > > > > http://www.viaarena.com/?PageID=343
> > > > >
> > > > > you can do:
> > > > >   wget http://downloads.viaarena.com/WinCE/Apr04/fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > > >   unzip fastboot%20v2.01.zip
> > > > >   strings */*/loader?.obj | grep -i linux
> > > > >
> > > > > it gives you stuff like :
> > > > >
> > > > > _linuxbios_versionR
> > > > > _linuxbios_extra_versionX
> > > > > _linuxbios_build`
> > > > > _linuxbios_compile_timef
> > > > > _linuxbios_compile_byp
> > > > > _linuxbios_compile_hostv
> > > > > _linuxbios_compile_domainz
> > > > > _linuxbios_compiler~
> > > > > _linuxbios_linker
> > > > > _linuxbios_assembler
> > > > >
> > > > > etc, etc.
> > > > >
> > > > > also that http page mentioned above has contact info. perhaps
> > > > > something to
> > > > > inquire at.
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Linuxbios mailing list
> > > > > [e-mail]
> > > > > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
> > > >
> > > > This email is strictly confidential and intended solely for the
> > > > addressee(s). It may contain personal and confidential information and
> > > > as such may be protected by the Data Protection Act 1998. If this email
> > > > has come to you in error you must take no action based on it, nor must
> > > > you copy or show it to anyone; please reply to this email and highlight
> > > > the error.
> > > >
> > > > Any views or opinions expressed within this email are those of the
> > > > author, and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
> > > >
> > > > Although we have taken steps to ensure that this email and attachments
> > > > are free from any virus, we advise that in keeping with good computer
> > > > practice the recipient should ensure they are actually virus free.
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Linuxbios mailing list
> > > [e-mail]
> > > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Linuxbios mailing list
> > [e-mail]
> > http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios
>
> _______________________________________________
> Linuxbios mailing list
> [e-mail]
> http://www.clustermatic.org/mailman/listinfo/linuxbios

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPLIssue

"Hendricks David W." <[e-mail]> writes:
> Does someone want to write a nice elaborate letter to the FSF to see if 
> there's a genuine GPL violation going on here?

Since the copyright is not assigned to the FSF what they can do is limited
but they may be able to assist in this matter.

Skimming the symbols it clearly appears that elfboot from LinuxBIOS
is begin reused.  Hopefully via can be convinced to comply with the
GPL.

Eric

Has anyone heard about EPIA MII FastBoot ROM Utility? < GPLIssue

[Stefan de Konink]

This definately should be brought polite probably just by asking to 
bring their sources to GPL land could probably be a *hint*. I also agree 
this can go two ways: LinuxBIOS gets adopted by Asus, Via, etc. or they 
are going to shout: 'Always GPL licenses in the way', with forgetting to 
mention the profit they make on the boards because it is now Linux/WinCE 
compatible and thus used more.

[e-mail] (Ted Teah helped me before on a GPL case) can 
be mailed, though you must be the IP/copyright-holder if you want to get 
some help.


Stefan